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Old 7 Sep 2017, 08:57 (Ref:3765145)   #51
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Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I really like this ides, as others have said it would add excitement to the end of every race. There would also be additional strategy (or at least strategic thinking) for the teams; Picking the optimal moment to bring the car in to change to new tyres, get the car out in time to get them up to perfect temperature, and get the car into sufficient free air on the track to run unimpeded and get the fast lap time. Brilliant!
Can we have this introduced in time for Singapore please?
It will have to wait until March Viv.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 09:04 (Ref:3765146)   #52
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I agree that a point FL would probably see drivers giving up fighting for a higher position in order to set that fastest time
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 09:25 (Ref:3765152)   #53
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It will have to wait until March Viv.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 09:50 (Ref:3765157)   #54
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I agree that a point FL would probably see drivers giving up fighting for a higher position in order to set that fastest time
I rather think that a point for fastest lap would usually be mopped up by Hamilton or Vettel
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 10:16 (Ref:3765159)   #55
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I rather think that a point for fastest lap would usually be mopped up by Hamilton or Vettel
Only if they pitted late for fresh rubber.

This year's British GP fastest lap came on L48 on fresh rubber, with Verstappen going 2nd fastest despite it being a power circuit.

Alonso was 4th fastest in Spain, as a result of fresh rubber despite having a Honda PU.

And Perez took the fastest lap at Monaco due to a late stop for tyres.

All of these examples are as a result of being forced to stop for tyres, and not a deliberate attempt for fastest lap. If there was a point on offer, then the only time front runners would take it is if they are already far enough ahead to be able to make an extra stop.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 15:02 (Ref:3765185)   #56
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I rather think that a point for fastest lap would usually be mopped up by Hamilton or Vettel
agreed or by one of the top cars, maybe more so when a top car is out of position and making a late charge through the field.

but if its the mid to back fielders making these late runs/late pitstops at the end of races dont we run the risk of seeing a bunch lapped cars (either close to being lapped, lapped already, or lapped by virtue of an extra stop) vying for fastest lap?

Alonso finished a couple of laps down in Spain and Perez was last of the finishers in Monaco...not sure how much value their fast laps really added to those proceedings.

and if its not that, then its one of the top teams winning the race and setting fastest lap as was the case in Britain.

and as the season progresses and fresh PUs come into short supply, whats the incentive to turn up the wick at the end of a race and risk and PU failure? does one point equal enough money to pay for an additional PU?

current restrictions on available PUs and pre event tire allocations render fastest laps sort of irrelevant these days...imo, this needs to change in order to compel teams into being more competitive at all times (every GP for every lap).
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 15:58 (Ref:3765196)   #57
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agreed or by one of the top cars, maybe more so when a top car is out of position and making a late charge through the field.

but if its the mid to back fielders making these late runs/late pitstops at the end of races dont we run the risk of seeing a bunch lapped cars (either close to being lapped, lapped already, or lapped by virtue of an extra stop) vying for fastest lap?

Alonso finished a couple of laps down in Spain and Perez was last of the finishers in Monaco...not sure how much value their fast laps really added to those proceedings.

and if its not that, then its one of the top teams winning the race and setting fastest lap as was the case in Britain.

and as the season progresses and fresh PUs come into short supply, whats the incentive to turn up the wick at the end of a race and risk and PU failure? does one point equal enough money to pay for an additional PU?

current restrictions on available PUs and pre event tire allocations render fastest laps sort of irrelevant these days...imo, this needs to change in order to compel teams into being more competitive at all times (every GP for every lap).
I've generally been against *false* situations being used to *spice up* the racing, but giving a point for fastest lap (and this should be both drivers & constructors points in my opinion) but this would do exactly that.
It's fair to assume that the fastest lap would be set as close to the end of the race as possible when the car is lightest having burned off most fuel.
Those towards the pointy end of the race would probably on more worn tyres which would make them getting the fastest lap more difficult/risky (so is it worth the risk?) Plus, the usual podium finishers are generally the ones fighting for the championship positions, so is it worth them risking car or mechanical damage pushing for the extra points?
For those who were going to finish out of the points anyway, it gives them (all of them) a chance to salvage a bit of kudos from the weekend, but they also have the risks mentioned above, plus the possibility of traffic hampering their lap, another sprinkle of spice in my opinion.
The only way I can see these extra points being won *easily* is if one of the top team's cars has a problem during the race (maybe needing lengthy pit stops to replace front wings a couple of times?) and so ends up running outside of the points. They could hopefully pit for fresh tyres (if they have any left) and get the fastest lap points, but again, this would stop them from just parking a (now) perfectly good car instead of winding around putting mileage on the components to finish the race, which would be good for the spectators and the sponsors.
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 18:47 (Ref:3765238)   #58
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Old 7 Sep 2017, 22:05 (Ref:3765270)   #59
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I've generally been against *false* situations being used to *spice up* the racing, but giving a point for fastest lap (and this should be both drivers & constructors points in my opinion) but this would do exactly that.
thats probably the root of my issues with a the point for fastest lap...its a bit on the contrived side of things.

although any change can be viewed as contrived so i should just get over that part of it already!

but, for me at least, its hard to get excited about FL, let alone hand out points for a lap time that is (typically) slower by a couple of seconds then what someone had already set the day before during Q2.

not really sure where i am going with bringing up qualifying but i think it has something to do with bringing back refueling...
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 06:57 (Ref:3765334)   #60
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Every month has Ides. 13th or 15th.
Yes! But the classical allusions makes the joke.
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 07:18 (Ref:3765337)   #61
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Heres an idea,........no grid penalties,turn out the lights and race to the chequered flag with no penalties..
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 09:28 (Ref:3765359)   #62
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Yes, let's have less complicated rules and actually have some proper racing
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 19:20 (Ref:3765487)   #63
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 21:41 (Ref:3765511)   #64
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Yes, let's have less complicated rules and actually have some proper racing
Sadly... easy to say, hard to implement.



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(PS: Is there a rule against animated GIFs? I looked at the forum FAQ and nothing jumped out at me.)
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Old 9 Sep 2017, 09:10 (Ref:3765618)   #65
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Yeah, they always go for complicated solutions instead of going for the obviously simple ones
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Old 9 Sep 2017, 10:25 (Ref:3765627)   #66
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Sadly... easy to say, hard to implement.



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Old 9 Sep 2017, 10:50 (Ref:3765629)   #67
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Yeah, they always go for complicated solutions instead of going for the obviously simple ones
Actually my point above is... what people think are obvious solutions do not work. Example of general outcomes are...

1. Destroys the commercial viability of a series.
2. Is not viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.
2. There is "real racing", but the racing is far from close and by extension is not entertaining for the broader audience.

To be more specific...

A very simple set of rules might have very little in the way of technical regulations (aka "Run what ya brung!"). This would result in largest budget wins and little or no close racing. Eventually those who can't afford to win leaves and the series dies or is highly unstable and volatile (not commercial viable) and gravitates toward a small niche series.

On the other end of the spectrum, is a set of simple technical regulations but implemented via fully spec equipment with zero development allowed. Throw in a budget cap as well just to make sure money is not spent somewhere. Anyone could participate and win. Racing should be very close. But why would anyone consider that as the pinnacle of Motorsports? The series would not attract important teams (i.e. Ferrari,etc.) and by extension top drivers. It might exist as a niche sport (i.e. International race of champions)

IMHO, F1 (Pinnacle sport with top teams and drivers) needs to sit somewhere in the middle of those scenarios... which would require careful and difficult crafting of regulations (by my definition not simple or easy).

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Old 12 Sep 2017, 12:05 (Ref:3766252)   #68
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It's there to stop the rich teams from changing their engines for every session.

The laughter should be aimed at Honda and Renault, who just can't get their act together.
20 years ago teams did it with no issue, so why are teams struggling now, I think the deficit is to be blamed on the grid penalties as its an eggshell game, it can be a worry to develop and then screw their teams over through a failure
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 14:00 (Ref:3766280)   #69
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Gary Anderson makes a good point, if you pardon the pun, on constructor points deductions. It would mean a team fighting for the title would just keep changing parts when they need to if they concentrated more on the drivers' title
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 15:41 (Ref:3766307)   #70
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Gary Anderson makes a good point, if you pardon the pun, on constructor points deductions. It would mean a team fighting for the title would just keep changing parts when they need to if they concentrated more on the drivers' title
teams are clever like that.
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 19:35 (Ref:3766371)   #71
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Gary Anderson makes a good point, if you pardon the pun, on constructor points deductions. It would mean a team fighting for the title would just keep changing parts when they need to if they concentrated more on the drivers' title
I made a similar observation on page two of this thread about the chance for teams to manipulate the drivers championship.

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Old 13 Sep 2017, 06:53 (Ref:3766445)   #72
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I made a similar observation on page two of this thread about the chance for teams to manipulate the drivers championship.

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Forget; "May the best man win."

"May the richest team win.", and frankly it has always been that way, and always will be until we revert to a 'Formula Ford' style championship where everyone drives an identical car.

Oh1 Each car will feature a covered cockpit, Drag Reduction System, and electric power. Roll on!
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 07:45 (Ref:3766449)   #73
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>>>>>>A very simple set of rules might have very little in the way of technical regulations (aka "Run what ya brung!"). This would result in largest budget wins and little or no close racing.

I beg to differ. The current rules leave little room for innovation without spending money but think over the years how brilliant design within a loose framework has allowed smaller teams to shine.

The tiny Cooper Car Company standing motor racing on its head by putting the engine behind the driver.

Colin Chapman in his early days had pretty meagre funding compared to the might of the Ferrari etc.

Adrian Newey getting the March/Leyton House to the sharp end of the grid with his fantastic aerodynamics.

The Cosworth DFV.

Ross Brawn in 2009.

There are many examples of garagistes sticking one over the grandes constructeurs thanks to innovation and thinking outside a pretty loose box. Make the rules so prescriptive that we basically have a spec car and we end up where we are today - it costs billions for a tiny incremental increase in performance, and the smaller teams can't engineer their way to the front.

As for close racing - has F1 ever been about that? From the pre-war Auto Unions and Mercedes through JYS's greatest race - he won by FOUR MINUTES - to the Mercedes steamroller of today, F1 has been a celebration of engineering excellence. If you want close racing go watch Formula Ford Kent at your local track. Great overtakes like the Schumacher/Hakkinen Spa epic are remembered because of their rarity not their frequency.



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Old 13 Sep 2017, 12:42 (Ref:3766529)   #74
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I beg to differ. The current rules leave little room for innovation without spending money but think over the years how brilliant design within a loose framework has allowed smaller teams to shine.

The tiny Cooper Car Company standing motor racing on its head by putting the engine behind the driver.

Colin Chapman in his early days had pretty meagre funding compared to the might of the Ferrari etc.

Adrian Newey getting the March/Leyton House to the sharp end of the grid with his fantastic aerodynamics.

The Cosworth DFV.

Ross Brawn in 2009.
I appreciate the conversation. And to your point, never say never. It's always possible for low cost innovation to occasionally create clever solutions.

But most of those examples are from an era when everyone was still figuring out how to make fast cars. Today it is more understood. IMHO, it is much harder today to innovate in ways that result in radical performance increases. I would argue the Brawn example doesn't even fit your argument. They were well funded. Honda just bailed out at the wrong time.

Lastly it's likely any dramatic innovation would be short lived and the "Garagista" quickly overtaken again. For lighting to strike multiple times for a single small team (to allow them to constantly perform better than their budget would allow), it would require some type of rare genius designer or design team. And how would a small team expect to retain that talent long term? They couldn't. Those with money would scoop them up. So occasionally blips can happen, but likely have no staying power.

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Old 13 Sep 2017, 14:46 (Ref:3766554)   #75
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bauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
In autumn 1932 motorsport's governing body in Paris unveiled a new formula for Grand Prix racing, which took effect two years later: all racing cars were to weigh no more than 750 kilograms excluding fuel, oil, coolant and tyres.
This limit was based on the assumption that only lightweight engines could be installed in lightweight vehicles and that this would therefore limit the racing cars' output and speed. However, the motorsport association underestimated advances in technology.

This is the type of Formula envisaged by Adrian Newey, as being the ideal,
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