Giedo Van Der Garde takes Sauber to court - Page 3

Nikki Katz · 10 Mar 2015, 23:39 (Ref:3513856)

Surely if Sauber drop one of the other two now then they will equally have breached contract with them, only a more lucrative one?

Do Sauber still have the money to pay off van der Garde? If not, is their future in pretty immediate danger?

**GTRMagic** · 10 Mar 2015, 23:40 (Ref:3513857)

There seems to be a fair bit of singing and dancing on Twitter that Sauber should have known this would be the outcome.. and not signed 3 (4?) drivers in the first place..

.. not sure if they are being critical of the Australian court or not.. if you heard the judgement read, it says that they had no capacity to hear argument given that their role as petitioned was to enforce the ruling of the international court who brought forth the original ruling.

Could this tip Sauber over the edge, or will Mr E make an appearance?

**GTRMagic** · 10 Mar 2015, 23:43 (Ref:3513860)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki Katz

Surely if Sauber drop one of the other two now then they will equally have breached contract with them, only a more lucrative one?

Do Sauber still have the money to pay off van der Garde? If not, is their future in pretty immediate danger?

Doesnt sound like he is ready to be 'paid off'

Story Here

**GTRMagic** · 11 Mar 2015, 00:20 (Ref:3513871)

Sauber Responds

Curious how you can be disappointed at the outcome when it was known virtually before they all walked into the courtroom

chillibowl · 11 Mar 2015, 00:53 (Ref:3513880)

One race or will this sideshow be going on all season?

wnut · 11 Mar 2015, 01:53 (Ref:3513890)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Sauber Responds

Curious how you can be disappointed at the outcome when it was known virtually before they all walked into the courtroom

Couldn't agree more with you GTRMagic. Considering that the court was just enforcing the Swiss Court's decision which they clearly knew, you have to wonder what Sauber were thinking, and who was advising them.
Brinkmanship / Stupidity !?

wnut · 11 Mar 2015, 02:02 (Ref:3513891)

They're appealing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**GTRMagic** · 11 Mar 2015, 02:04 (Ref:3513892)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

They're appealing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No they're not...

Oh, you mean in court

The current judge made it very clear that he did not have the latitude to take arguments... so.. good luck with that

Tourer · 11 Mar 2015, 02:40 (Ref:3513900)

I have to say I'm surprised at the outcome given that it's a court in Victoria and the original contract would have under Swiss law presumably. But then I'm not a lawyer so what would I know?

What a mess! We're only hearing the different parties' take on it all but it does sound like Sauber may well have messed up substantially. Might be more legal argument to come so that view might change of course.

wnut · 11 Mar 2015, 03:01 (Ref:3513906)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tourer

I have to say I'm surprised at the outcome given that it's a court in Victoria and the original contract would have under Swiss law presumably. But then I'm not a lawyer so what would I know?

What a mess! We're only hearing the different parties' take on it all but it does sound like Sauber may well have messed up substantially. Might be more legal argument to come so that view might change of course.

Tourer, the point is that the Victorian court is ruling that the Swiss court's decision applies, not on the rights and wrongs of the case.
The Swiss court has jurisdiction over the contract and has ruled, the Australian court has merely acknowledged the Swiss courts jurisdiction and that the decision will be enforced in Australia.

The only place this matter can be appealed is in Switzerland, they are wasting their time in Australia, IMO.

It was an arbitration in Switzerland, so probably no avenue for appeal, unless they can prove illegality in the arbitration process, very very difficult!

They're screwed, again IMO!

Finski · 11 Mar 2015, 03:12 (Ref:3513909)

Going to be interesting how this all plays out. I bet whoever loses their seat will hold a bit of a grudge against him lol. I bet Van Der Garde will be spewing if he crashes the car at all over the weekend.

**GTRMagic** · 11 Mar 2015, 03:18 (Ref:3513910)

Joe Saward's View

Mr Saward suggests that Sauber cannot afford to pay Mr Van Der Garde off... but imagine if Ferrari were to help somehow, to shift him to Manor Marussia in place of Mr Merhi. I only considered that Ferrari could help because of the commonality of engine supply between the two

Wonder when Renault might run the ruler over Sauber?

Nicholosophy · 11 Mar 2015, 03:56 (Ref:3513920)

The Arbitration Court has ruled that VDG has a valid contract to provide him with a race seat in 2015. I'm not sure when the Arbitration decision was made. I would guess that Sauber would have had time to do a seat fitting and make some adjustments prior to the GP if they had chosen to accept the arbitration decision. Of course they were never intending to, so VDG had to force the issue.

What I see now is that three drivers have valid contracts entitling them to a race seat at Sauber for 2015. The contracts presumably state that it is for all races in the 2015 F1 championship, or such wording. Otherwise the could put VDG in for one race and drop him for the rest of the year.

Sauber are f**ked. They are going to have to settle with one of the drivers to not race, or get the arbitration decision overturned (which I understand is not likely). Based on what has been said previously about their financial position, this could leave them without enough funds to compete competitively (or at all) in 2015.

They rolled the dice to stay afloat and I believe they have crapped out.

JeremySmith · 11 Mar 2015, 04:08 (Ref:3513926)

Giedo van der Garde won't race that car in Melbourne no matter what the court has ruled ..

**GTRMagic** · 11 Mar 2015, 04:19 (Ref:3513928)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Giedo van der Garde won't race that car in Melbourne no matter what the court has ruled ..

It will be interesting to see what happens.. The Australian judge made it clear several times during his pronouncements that his office was open 24/7 for further guidance & assistance should the execution of his order prove not to be carried out.

Its hard to fathom a logical remedy here..

Oldtony · 11 Mar 2015, 04:25 (Ref:3513930)

It would appear that the F1 habit of considering a contract as something you can break if you feel like it might be coming to an end.
Disregarding the ins and outs of this case the reputation of the whole circus has been pretty poor in relationship to abiding by the rule of law for some time.
With some having the perception that the "the fish is rotting from the head" in terms of legal standing maybe it is time for the FIA to start banging a few heads together.
Do other levels of the sport engage in this contempt for contract law or is it just F1?
No wonder there is some reluctance for businesses with a reputation to consider to become involved.

Fiorentina 1 · 11 Mar 2015, 04:51 (Ref:3513931)

Peter Sauber should have never placed Monisha Kaltenborn in charge. This b.s would have never happened under his guidance. Sauber took money from 3 drivers for 2 seats. One way or the other someone loses out and Sauber will have to give someone their money back with penalties. I think this episode spells the end of Sauber. I don't see them finishing the season......

JeremySmith · 11 Mar 2015, 05:07 (Ref:3513933)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldtony

It would appear that the F1 habit of considering a contract as something you can break if you feel like it might be coming to an end.
Disregarding the ins and outs of this case the reputation of the whole circus has been pretty poor in relationship to abiding by the rule of law for some time.
With some having the perception that the "the fish is rotting from the head" in terms of legal standing maybe it is time for the FIA to start banging a few heads together.
Do other levels of the sport engage in this contempt for contract law or is it just F1?
No wonder there is some reluctance for businesses with a reputation to consider to become involved.

I completly aggre with you it's a disgrace, it's become a deep rooted problem now that stems from teams fighting to survive ..
Completly absurd....

JeremySmith · 11 Mar 2015, 05:11 (Ref:3513934)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

It will be interesting to see what happens.. The Australian judge made it clear several times during his pronouncements that his office was open 24/7 for further guidance & assistance should the execution of his order prove not to be carried out.

Its hard to fathom a logical remedy here..

It will be interesting to see how it plays out, yet another reminder that something needs to be done and fast ....

steve nielsen · 11 Mar 2015, 05:37 (Ref:3513941)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiorentina 1

Peter Sauber should have never placed Monisha Kaltenborn in charge. This b.s would have never happened under his guidance. Sauber took money from 3 drivers for 2 seats. One way or the other someone loses out and Sauber will have to give someone their money back with penalties. I think this episode spells the end of Sauber. I don't see them finishing the season......

4 drivers : Sutil also has a contract

Tourer · 11 Mar 2015, 06:06 (Ref:3513947)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiorentina 1

Peter Sauber should have never placed Monisha Kaltenborn in charge. This b.s would have never happened under his guidance. Sauber took money from 3 drivers for 2 seats. One way or the other someone loses out and Sauber will have to give someone their money back with penalties. I think this episode spells the end of Sauber. I don't see them finishing the season......

I guess whether they finish or nor remains to be seen but it feels like you may be correct re MK in charge. Nothing against her per se, but sometimes someone with a legal background in MK's position doesn't confer with outside legal counsel re matters like this. They think that they know the law but the law is often a moving thing and it appears that a bad call was made in this instance.

**GTRMagic** · 11 Mar 2015, 06:47 (Ref:3513954)

Appeal Deferred Til Thursday

Its hard to see how the local court can vary the view from the overarching Swiss one..

Presuming the delay is for the judge to explore the possibilities within his jurisdiction

Madness

steve nielsen · 11 Mar 2015, 06:49 (Ref:3513956)

Sauber have now borrowed some other cars to solve the problem

**GTRMagic** · 11 Mar 2015, 07:58 (Ref:3513970)

Story Here

Its going to be a loooooong day in court tomorrow it seems...

Hopefully the justices are comfortable with the technical nature of Sauber's objections on safety grounds... We shall see...

steve nielsen · 11 Mar 2015, 08:37 (Ref:3513984)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Story Here

Its going to be a loooooong day in court tomorrow it seems...

Hopefully the justices are comfortable with the technical nature of Sauber's objections on safety grounds... We shall see...

but drivers have to be confirmed with the FIA before 16.00

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