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Old 13 Mar 2017, 14:29 (Ref:3718385)   #16
chillibowl
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Originally Posted by karting View Post
I have friend who works for mclaren in the road car department (in the mclaren technology centre) and he says he has spoken to the race team guys. What they say, is that Honda could of matched the Mercedes but they would always be trying to catch up, but apprently Honda have gone outside the box to be faster (not match Mercedes engine wise) and this is Gavin all sorts of teething problems.

This is hear say from a good friend, but I don't k know the truth behind the story.
i feel as though that rings true with everything we have been reading about the situation.

and i suppose not altogether unprecedented either...Williams fell into this pattern in the 2000's as they fell from the top/struggled to find budgets equal to that of what the top manu teams of that period were spending, and found themselves looking for 'radical' or 'out side the box' solutions in the hopes that ingenuity would make up the difference.

the size zero concept and now the seemingly over ambitious engine redesign are akin to Williams Walrus nose...an attempt to throw a knock out punch while falling to the mat.

for my part, i cant say i have a problem with this approach given the financial advantage the top teams have nor am i sure what other choice they have.

they can resign themselves to the 'also ran' category or take a chance in the hopes that they can find their way back to the top...but then i love the underdog and Mclaren-Honda are certainly that now!
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 14:48 (Ref:3718387)   #17
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Originally Posted by karting View Post
I have friend who works for mclaren in the road car department (in the mclaren technology centre) and he says he has spoken to the race team guys. What they say, is that Honda could of matched the Mercedes but they would always be trying to catch up, but apprently Honda have gone outside the box to be faster (not match Mercedes engine wise) and this is Gavin all sorts of teething problems.

This is hear say from a good friend, but I don't k know the truth behind the story.
I think there have been a few quotes from Honda personnel that effectively say the same. They have gone a new way vs. development of the prior engine and say it's a risky path, but with more hopes of challenging Mercedes. Here is an example...

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/138342-...mercedes-level

I applaud the approach. Question is... Did they bite off more than they can chew? Was it a poorly run project?

Richard
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 18:06 (Ref:3718414)   #18
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they were one of the only, if not the only team, to have pushed development of their 2016 challenger all the way to the last race in 2016, so in hindsight and all things being equal, it should be expected that they would be, compared to the other teams who shifted focus towards 2017 much earlier, behind at this point.

add to that, the aggressive approach that Honda has taken...i would say that being behind is the natural outcome rather then it being squarely an issue of a poorly run 2017 program (although one cannot discount that possibility either).

given how much they progressed over the course of 2016 i think its fair to say that there should still be optimism that they will improve.

i think we will see a very different team by May/start on the European season in Barcelona.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 18:55 (Ref:3718425)   #19
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
i think we will see a very different team by May/start on the European season in Barcelona.
I tend to agree with you. I am hopefully they will get it together by then. But it is a key point that the initial fly away races will be rough for them unless things are not as dire as they appear.

The European season is roughly 60 days away. How quickly can Honda solve their reliability (not to mention performance) problems? I believe the limitations on number of Power Units allocation (four?) still stands for 2017, so I don't think it's out of the question that McLaren may go through their entire season's worth of engines prior to the Barcelona race! It's also not out of the question that we may see a rash of double DNFs for McLaren! I sure hope there will be no questions about the ability to qualify within 107%!

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Old 13 Mar 2017, 19:05 (Ref:3718430)   #20
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They've gone for a big bang engine and got it wrong so the vibrations are too much.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 19:48 (Ref:3718447)   #21
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I believe the limitations on number of Power Units allocation (four?) still stands for 2017, so I don't think it's out of the question that McLaren may go through their entire season's worth of engines prior to the Barcelona race!
forgot about that rule...once the time capsule thread opens up, my first prediction will be that one of the Mclaren drivers will use up their entire allotment during the first weekend!
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 19:56 (Ref:3718450)   #22
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forgot about that rule...once the time capsule thread opens up, my first prediction will be that one of the Mclaren drivers will use up their entire allotment during the first weekend!
Sadly it is not out of the range of possibility! However you need to follow up with Alonso winning the championship with a triumphant and dominant return by Honda and McLaren later in the season!

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Old 13 Mar 2017, 21:14 (Ref:3718459)   #23
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I tend to agree with you. I am hopefully they will get it together by then. But it is a key point that the initial fly away races will be rough for them unless things are not as dire as they appear.

The European season is roughly 60 days away. How quickly can Honda solve their reliability (not to mention performance) problems? I believe the limitations on number of Power Units allocation (four?) still stands for 2017, so I don't think it's out of the question that McLaren may go through their entire season's worth of engines prior to the Barcelona race! It's also not out of the question that we may see a rash of double DNFs for McLaren! I sure hope there will be no questions about the ability to qualify within 107%!

Richard
Can they still introduce another 4 engine into the mix at the next race for a single penalty as Mercedes did for Hamilton last year, or has that loophole been closed for 2017?
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 21:20 (Ref:3718461)   #24
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Originally Posted by matherto View Post
They've gone for a big bang engine and got it wrong so the vibrations are too much.
I thought this is what they had done too, but in some ways it does not make sense, their engine was down on power anyway and the big bang engines are less powerful (and more thirsty) but more predictable than the screamers, also you can use the KERS to smooth the power delivery through increased harvesting.

The symptoms certainly shout big bang engine, but there is little logic to introducing one in F1, you lose power and economy for no benefit.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3718464)   #25
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Sadly it is not out of the range of possibility! However you need to follow up with Alonso winning the championship with a triumphant and dominant return by Honda and McLaren later in the season!

Richard
Since the Honda (lack of?)powerplants are so poor, relatively speaking, being dumped to the back of the grid likely wont move Mr Alonso and Mr van Doorne too far further towards the rear than they already were



I am still reminded when Honda replaced its V10 engine with a V12 at McLaren all those years ago.. it was a worse engine.. and Mr Senna told them so... but Honda learned something from the experience..

Isnt that why engine suppliers have a B team?
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 21:41 (Ref:3718465)   #26
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
I thought this is what they had done too, but in some ways it does not make sense, their engine was down on power anyway and the big bang engines are less powerful (and more thirsty) but more predictable than the screamers, also you can use the KERS to smooth the power delivery through increased harvesting.

The symptoms certainly shout big bang engine, but there is little logic to introducing one in F1, you lose power and economy for no benefit.
Given the McLaren-Honda is off by 30km/h on the straights (according to Mr Alonso..) what kind of bang is going on? She aint too big..
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 21:40 (Ref:3718669)   #27
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Can they still introduce another 4 engine into the mix at the next race for a single penalty as Mercedes did for Hamilton last year, or has that loophole been closed for 2017?

It has been closed. You can still run through multiple engines for a single (race meeting) penalty, but only the last one utilized is added to the pool, not all the ones used like Merc did last year.
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 22:28 (Ref:3718681)   #28
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It has been closed. You can still run through multiple engines for a single (race meeting) penalty, but only the last one utilized is added to the pool, not all the ones used like Merc did last year.
So... Honda had want to put together a big truck full of powerplants then.. if 11 laps is what they got out of an engine..

Maybe they can build a Velcro-powered system to get engines in & out... a mid race refuel & re-engine sure... indubitably...
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