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Old 9 Jul 2010, 14:09 (Ref:2724014)   #1
pez
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GT4 - The future...?

Given the economic climate, is this the time for GT4?

We now have GT4 race series in UK, Europe & Asia and more GT4 homolgated cars.... so what's stopping it being from becoming an outright success?
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 15:33 (Ref:2724057)   #2
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GT4's problem is IMHO the permanent rules creep: When they started the class there were plans for BMW Z4, Audi TT and even Opel GT projects and the Mustangs were quite competitive. But in the last few years they have not only left the Mustang a good deal behind, even the original "no additional aero-parts" rule has been weakened to a point where it isn't really worth a lot anymore (cf. the current Maserati) and cars have become a good deal more expensive than initially planned.

If I was a rich gentleman driver, and had the choice between running a car in GT4 or in an open national series like Dutch Supercar or Britcar, I'd go for the latter, as I'd probably get a lot more bhp for my €...

I really like the concept of GT4 - and especially its American cousin, the Continental Tire Challenge - but truth is that it shouldn't be a GT-series, but be regarded as one for touring cars since classical touring car tracks like Zolder are where these cars really shine, while they get spread out and boring at places like Spa or the Nürburgring.

What they should have done with GT4 is to copy Copy Conti Challenge and make it into a European Endurance Championship for Production cars or something like that - kinda like a successor to the old 1960s-80s ETCC.

Last edited by Speed-King; 9 Jul 2010 at 15:39.
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Old 9 Jul 2010, 16:04 (Ref:2724072)   #3
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GT4's problem is IMHO the permanent rules creep: When they started the class there were plans for BMW Z4, Audi TT and even Opel GT projects and the Mustangs were quite competitive. But in the last few years they have not only left the Mustang a good deal behind, even the original "no additional aero-parts" rule has been weakened to a point where it isn't really worth a lot anymore (cf. the current Maserati) and cars have become a good deal more expensive than initially planned.

If I was a rich gentleman driver, and had the choice between running a car in GT4 or in an open national series like Dutch Supercar or Britcar, I'd go for the latter, as I'd probably get a lot more bhp for my €...

I really like the concept of GT4 - and especially its American cousin, the Continental Tire Challenge - but truth is that it shouldn't be a GT-series, but be regarded as one for touring cars since classical touring car tracks like Zolder are where these cars really shine, while they get spread out and boring at places like Spa or the Nürburgring.

What they should have done with GT4 is to copy Copy Conti Challenge and make it into a European Endurance Championship for Production cars or something like that - kinda like a successor to the old 1960s-80s ETCC.
Agreed Speed-King.

From a fantasy stand-point, I'd love to see Grand-Am champion the Conti Challenge concept more and allow them in the Rolex 24. I think if European teams were given the opportunity to come and run in the Rolex 24 with a Conti-spec 'GT4' car, that could be huge. I think it could grow like 70's IMSA GT Racing.

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Old 10 Jul 2010, 07:45 (Ref:2724301)   #4
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I never liked the GT4, its seems to be Gran Turismo or Forza Motorsport for the real life, even proper touring cars are much faster
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Old 10 Jul 2010, 09:17 (Ref:2724324)   #5
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I never liked the GT4, its seems to be Gran Turismo or Forza Motorsport for the real life, even proper touring cars are much faster
Nope, Super 2000 cars (are that real touring cars for you?) are about as fast as GT4 cars... S2000 lap record at Zandvoort is 1.47.XXX and it's about the same in the Dutch GT4 series. And you can't really compare WTCC with the GT4 European series, as the teams and drivers are at very different levels of quality. But when we compare the GT4 European series to ADAC-Procar, which is an amateur series for S2000 cars, we again see very similar times, with both doing 1.38s at Oschersleben.
GT4 cars of today, are in fact not much slower than the 996 Cup-Porsches of ten years ago, and if those were a legitimate addition to national GT series back then, GT4s are today.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 01:48 (Ref:2725167)   #6
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If the regs allowed some basic aero additions I think it would improve the look of the cars and their performance on track.

+ there is a great mix of GT4 car out there now:
Porsche
BMW
Maserati
Aston
Ginetta
Nissan
Lotus
Corvette
Audi
Donkervoort
KTM
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 07:39 (Ref:2725242)   #7
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I think they've suffered with image a bit as they are always on the same bill as the same model of car but in a higher class that looks sexier and is much faster. If they were on their own as a GT race with a mix of s/seaters and saloon cars making up the program, they'd probably be the most popular on the bill.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 21:58 (Ref:2725716)   #8
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Not sure what happen to the Euro series or and the UK series is dominated by Ginettas.

I would run a couple of Boss 302R's in Europe, I'm kinda surprised nobody has imported any. I know a Dutch or a Belgian team was suppose to run some Camaros.

The only part of Grand Am I can stand is Grand Am Cup and that's because it was never their idea... It was originally the IMSA Firestone Firehawk Series...
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 22:20 (Ref:2725732)   #9
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I know a Dutch or a Belgian team was suppose to run some Camaros.
Yes, Equipe Verschuur. One of their cars didn't meet the delivery, the second broke before round one and the third broke during round one. They've had problems ever since I believe.
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Old 12 Jul 2010, 22:28 (Ref:2725737)   #10
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The only part of Grand Am I can stand is Grand Am Cup and that's because it was never their idea... It was originally the IMSA Firestone Firehawk Series...
As if IMSA invented showroom stock racing... and just FYI, there's no direct lineage between the Firehawk series and Conti Challenge:

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The Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge is a racing series run by the Grand American Road Racing Association. Originating from the Canadian Motorola Cup, the series was taken over by Grand-Am in 2001 to become the Grand-Am Cup following the demise of rival IMSA's Firehawk series of similar rules in the US.
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 07:52 (Ref:2725890)   #11
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...and the UK series is dominated by Ginettas.
I wouldn't quite say that, the Lotus 2-11 has proven quick in the 3 races it has taken part in & would have won at Knockhill if it hadn't been rudely punted off & in to retirement by a Viper at a late re-start.
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 20:17 (Ref:2726248)   #12
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As if IMSA invented showroom stock racing... and just FYI, there's no direct lineage between the Firehawk series and Conti Challenge:
Ova here, Stockroom Stock was invented by the SCCA to replace a series of classes that in years past had Mustang GT350's and such in them. They slowly got replaced with tube chassis cars and the cost shot through the roof.

There is a direct lineage between the Firehawk series and Conti Challenge and he's how I know this.

IMSA's series was different than SCCA because IMSA allowed minor modifications (bolt-ons). In fact there is not a ton of difference between the Eagle Talon's that the Archer Brothers fielded and the Talon's they fielded in SCCA World Challenge T2.

SCCA Showroom Stock was stock until the Dodge Neon ACR started to dominate SSC that they allowed "Trunk Kits". Otherwise you had to race the cars as they came with bolt-in roll bars. The Neon had 1 way adjustable Koni struts (1997-99 MY) and they were sloted for vastly more camber adjustment than what was found on most cars in its class, I know I had one Plus all the engineers in Chrysler Small Car raced the things so they had custom flashed ECU's and blueprinted engines.... These things are fairly normal in Showroom Stock.

But anyway, the Firehawk series became the Speedvision Endurance series when Firestone ended its relationship and Toyo was brought in. When Speedvision, then Speed dropped direct sponsorship, what was left of it merged with the Canadian Motorola Cup and THAT became The Conti Challenge.

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Old 13 Jul 2010, 20:26 (Ref:2726253)   #13
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I wouldn't quite say that, the Lotus 2-11 has proven quick in the 3 races it has taken part in & would have won at Knockhill if it hadn't been rudely punted off & in to retirement by a Viper at a late re-start.
I haven't seen much of the British GT series this year. The person that used to record the series doesn't seem to anymore and of course I can't watch it here without torrents available.

I know Chad Racing is doing European GT3 this season.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 02:27 (Ref:2726372)   #14
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the British GT is not a good yard stick for GT4.
The European series has much better success with approx grid sizes of 15 cars and I understand some other national GT4 series have momentum such as the Dutch GT4.

The Asia series launched this yr has about 10 cars on the grid with supposedly a couple more to join later in the yr.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 07:19 (Ref:2726396)   #15
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The biggest problem with GT4, other than the very good points made my SpeedKing about rules creep which has meant (legal) original cars have been left behind by items that were specifically banned when we built the cars such as "no aero addenda" c.f new Maser, and "no Porsche 911s" otherwise we'd have built one. Only high volume production cars "Ginetta then allowed in to ruin the UK series"...
But also cost, Michelin are charging twice as much to sell us the GT4 tyre in the European Championship as they charge for exactly the same tyre at the VLN races!
The entry fee is ludicrous for 2 * 40min races and as a result it's costing (as a team that runs seriously cheap) about £1 a second that the car is on track! That's the same we were paying to run a LMP2 car in 2004!!!! Given lack of decent billing (again as well highlighted above) and poor TV coverage we've pulled our car from the European GT4 this year purely because cost-wise to sponsors it makes no sense whatsoever.
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