Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides MotorsportAds MotorsTV (Sky 447)  
Related Sites: Baltic Touring Car Championship Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > WTCC & European Touring Car Series


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17 Jan 2016, 17:31 (Ref:3605673)   #31
Roninho
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 372
Roninho should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Totally disagree. Tin-tops have been the kings of European national racing since forever. I can't think of a single national open wheel series that ever became more than just a feeder to F1.

Now, DTM are pretty bad as far as tin-tops are concerned, but I see absolutely no chance for a successful switch to formula-style cars. (Not the least because of how big Audi and BMW seem to be on road-relevance).
Yes they have been kings since forever. And have had massive financial support from OEM's. And how many have become popular with the general audience (which was my point)?

The closest two are DTM and BTCC, and i believe BTCC is the only one that is really ''succesfull' on its own power. DTM to me is just the result of the 3 oems throwing massive money in it.

I fully believe if these 3 would throw the same kind of money and promotion on a high powered open wheel serie (kind of like super formula or GP2) that this would get much higher attention.

Having said that, your last sentence is indeed true, i don't believe for a second that it will ever chance to a formula class because the oems don't want that.
Roninho is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Jan 2016, 18:56 (Ref:3605985)   #32
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 15,787
FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!
What GT3 racing is now was touring car racing in '70s, '80s and '90s.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Jan 2016, 18:48 (Ref:3606652)   #33
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 15,787
FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!
New engines delayed until 2019:
http://www.touringcartimes.com/2016/...ed-until-2019/
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Jan 2016, 20:40 (Ref:3606692)   #34
BSchneiderFan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United Kingdom
London, UK
Posts: 4,920
BSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBSchneiderFan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I'm starting to worry that Class 1 will never appear.
BSchneiderFan is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Jan 2016, 12:54 (Ref:3606831)   #35
kurski
Veteran
 
kurski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Finland
Posts: 1,392
kurski should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
When complete, the Kymi Ring's FIM Grade A certification will be accompanied by Grade 2 on the FIA's motorsport scale. Car racing, including championships such as the DTM and World Touring Cars, is also on the venue's radar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autosport.com View Post
The [Finnish] car federation has had some serious talks with the FIA and to other promoters," Pohjola confirmed.
kurski is offline  
__________________
“Fernando Alonso has revealed that he would like to contest the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the world’s oldest and most famous sports car race"
Quote
Old 23 Jan 2016, 21:21 (Ref:3607465)   #36
helgi
Veteran
 
helgi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Russian Federation
Sergiev Posad, Moscow Region, Russian Fe
Posts: 1,219
helgi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan View Post
I'm starting to worry that Class 1 will never appear.
I've used to think about it too, as I was a huge DTM fan when I first came to 10ths. But every year ITR did something, that knocked at the doors of sense heavily. Today it's not independent enough, there's not much sports in it and the level of self-admiration (hey, look at us, we are the best "touring" championship in the known Universe) multiplied by F1 mimicry in the worst possible way (why on earth are Germans so nuts about F1?) - everything prevents from organizing Klass1 = DTM + Super GT + Trans Am + smth in South Africa as it was in old good days.
helgi is offline  
__________________
Shvabe Munich - Le Mans winning V4 blocks )
Quote
Old 23 Jan 2016, 23:22 (Ref:3607496)   #37
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 6,772
Speed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by helgi View Post
Klass1 = DTM + Super GT + Trans Am + smth in South Africa as it was in old good days.
Those good old days never existed. Trans-Am was already a tube-chassis series when DTM first came onto the scene in 1984, and the South African cars were also always a lot more radical then what you could do in Group A.
Speed-King is offline  
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam.
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 09:35 (Ref:3607544)   #38
MagVanisher
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,214
MagVanisher should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMagVanisher should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
@helgi
I have the same feeling as you are. Honestly, it's time for DTM to close its doors.
MagVanisher is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 10:18 (Ref:3607551)   #39
DS"
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Germany
Germany
Posts: 795
DS" should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by helgi View Post
(why on earth are Germans so nuts about F1?)
One reason: Michael Schumacher. Although F1 is also declining in popularity in Germany. Not only was the attendance of the German GP in freefall, TV ratings were also falling in 2015.

Well, the hopes I and perhaps "we" had in 2011 that DTM would finally improve...well, they haven't come true. While the level of talent in this series has certainly been raised when compared to 2009, everything else has been horribly managed. Also, what use do young drivers from single-seater feeder series have, when they're not marketed at all? Not to mention that we've had the third German champion in a row and yet only Pascal Wehrlein is slowly getting some recogniton among mainstream German racing fans (Which is obviously due to his ties to the Mercedes F1 team). But as for people like Rockenfeller or Wittmann? No chance. Time and time again I've mentioned that back in the 90's, drivers like Schneider, Stuck, Ludwig and perhaps Biela and Winkelhock were at least fairly well known at a time, where Michael Schumacher caused a real racing boom in Germany.
I don't know about other countries, but apart from Football, every type of sports in Germany is destined to blow up like a bubble, only to burst. Take tennis: Boris Becker and Steffi Graf caused a tennis boom in Germany, but once both retired, tennis coverage in the German media went way down. In a sense, the same also happens to F1 at the moment, despite the fact that we still have two top drivers, as well as a German manufacturer dominating the series. I guess the German mainstream sporting fans are tired and saturated by F1. But a declining interest in F1 doesn't spell good things for DTM and such. In my opinion, mainstream interest in other forms of racing in Germany only comes alongside a high interest in F1. But when people move away from F1, they move entirely away from racing.
But in my opinion, it's not neccesarily such a bad thing: The German racing scene can perhaps consolidate itself, rebuild (With the ADAC GT Masters, the new TCR Series and the DTC, as well as VLN, there a more than solid foundation) and recharge forward in a couple of years. But the first step has to be to closedown of DTM, because that series takes up too many resources: Too many sponsors, too much public interest (even though it's falling), too many fans. When the DTM doesn't take any of these away, other series can surely make good use of it.
DS" is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 11:25 (Ref:3607569)   #40
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 6,772
Speed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yet there is no indication whatsoever that DTM will fall...
Speed-King is offline  
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam.
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 12:16 (Ref:3607578)   #41
Rf1 Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 564
Rf1 Fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS" View Post
One reason: Michael Schumacher. Although F1 is also declining in popularity in Germany. Not only was the attendance of the German GP in freefall, TV ratings were also falling in 2015.

Well, the hopes I and perhaps "we" had in 2011 that DTM would finally improve...well, they haven't come true. While the level of talent in this series has certainly been raised when compared to 2009, everything else has been horribly managed. Also, what use do young drivers from single-seater feeder series have, when they're not marketed at all? Not to mention that we've had the third German champion in a row and yet only Pascal Wehrlein is slowly getting some recogniton among mainstream German racing fans (Which is obviously due to his ties to the Mercedes F1 team). But as for people like Rockenfeller or Wittmann? No chance. Time and time again I've mentioned that back in the 90's, drivers like Schneider, Stuck, Ludwig and perhaps Biela and Winkelhock were at least fairly well known at a time, where Michael Schumacher caused a real racing boom in Germany.
I don't know about other countries, but apart from Football, every type of sports in Germany is destined to blow up like a bubble, only to burst. Take tennis: Boris Becker and Steffi Graf caused a tennis boom in Germany, but once both retired, tennis coverage in the German media went way down. In a sense, the same also happens to F1 at the moment, despite the fact that we still have two top drivers, as well as a German manufacturer dominating the series. I guess the German mainstream sporting fans are tired and saturated by F1. But a declining interest in F1 doesn't spell good things for DTM and such. In my opinion, mainstream interest in other forms of racing in Germany only comes alongside a high interest in F1. But when people move away from F1, they move entirely away from racing.
But in my opinion, it's not neccesarily such a bad thing: The German racing scene can perhaps consolidate itself, rebuild (With the ADAC GT Masters, the new TCR Series and the DTC, as well as VLN, there a more than solid foundation) and recharge forward in a couple of years. But the first step has to be to closedown of DTM, because that series takes up too many resources: Too many sponsors, too much public interest (even though it's falling), too many fans. When the DTM doesn't take any of these away, other series can surely make good use of it.

DTM will fall when HWA will loose money which is not the case right now.

HWA has a rather handy ROI of 10% right now which is qui healthy.
Rf1 Fan is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 18:35 (Ref:3607663)   #42
DS"
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Germany
Germany
Posts: 795
DS" should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Yet there is no indication whatsoever that DTM will fall...
Well, there is no official TV deal for 2016 yet (Although the DTM's twitter account confirmed that they retain their current deal), attendance is declining, mainstream attention is barely existant, the series lacks real stars, real sponsors and real racing. Granted, the manufacturers are still in it, but I can definitely see Audi and Mercedes pulling the plug on their DTM programmes. Audi, because of the VW diesel scandal and Mercedes, because they may need to save some money, due to the expensive F1 program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rf1 Fan View Post
DTM will fall when HWA will loose money which is not the case right now.

HWA has a rather handy ROI of 10% right now which is qui healthy.
Do you have any source for that? Because the ITR, the organizers of the DTM, is a non-profit organisation, which isn't allowed to earn any money. Any money Herr Aufrecht makes comes perhaps from his shares in AMG and the activities of the HWA AG.
DS" is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 19:25 (Ref:3607678)   #43
Rf1 Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 564
Rf1 Fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS" View Post
Well, there is no official TV deal for 2016 yet (Although the DTM's twitter account confirmed that they retain their current deal), attendance is declining, mainstream attention is barely existant, the series lacks real stars, real sponsors and real racing. Granted, the manufacturers are still in it, but I can definitely see Audi and Mercedes pulling the plug on their DTM programmes. Audi, because of the VW diesel scandal and Mercedes, because they may need to save some money, due to the expensive F1 program.



Do you have any source for that? Because the ITR, the organizers of the DTM, is a non-profit organisation, which isn't allowed to earn any money. Any money Herr Aufrecht makes comes perhaps from his shares in AMG and the activities of the HWA AG.
I talked about HWA AG specifically not ITR or Hans Werner Aufrecht.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

If HWA AG is not healthy then DTM will have problems imo.

Somewhat HWA AG is historically the heart of DTM since 2000.

From what i see HWA AG is making good money of its businesses.

The books looks good, so i can see why would HWA AG is willing to be standstill with DTM in terms of product as they earn good money.

For the source:
http://www.hwaag.com/fileadmin/user_...HWA_GB14_e.pdf

2015 for first semester numbers were looking better than 2014.
Rf1 Fan is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 19:38 (Ref:3607681)   #44
DS"
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Germany
Germany
Posts: 795
DS" should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks for the report!

The way I see it, HWA AG is also making money by selling Formula 3 engines and especially by selling the GT3 versions of the Mercedes-AMG GT. However, doesn't the HWA AG receive money by Mercedes to run the DTM program? So in the end, if Mercedes pulls the plug, things would look not too good for HWA and thus the DTM.

That is the main problem of the DTM anyway: Too much dependence on manufacturers. I think we all agree when we say that DTM should have provided better conditions for potential privateers, right?
DS" is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2016, 20:10 (Ref:3607687)   #45
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 6,772
Speed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS" View Post
That is the main problem of the DTM anyway: Too much dependence on manufacturers. I think we all agree when we say that DTM should have provided better conditions for potential privateers, right?
That's like saying we all agree that we should get more money in our jobs. Doesn't mean it'll change one iota, though.

I just find DTM easier to ignore than to get worked up about it. Especially since our number-2-series (GT-Masters) is at a level most countries would love to have as their top series. And then there's the new TCR-series to get excited about.
Speed-King is offline  
__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam.
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[ELMS] ELMS 2016 TheMightyM Sportscar & GT Racing 255 5 Oct 2016 15:43
2016 Calendar William5 Australasian Touring Cars. 29 9 Sep 2015 02:34
[LM24] 2016 date...? Muppetdave901 24 Heures du Mans 2 11 Feb 2015 00:21
[DTM] DTM is dead, long lives ITC! DS" WTCC & European Touring Car Series 4 2 Apr 2012 18:31
Spotters Guides : BTCC, WTCC, SCC and DTM (DTM added) andy_b WTCC & European Touring Car Series 19 10 Oct 2007 20:53


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.