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Old 26 Feb 2017, 07:39 (Ref:3714774)   #1
SJWBallistic
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Continued issues with Dunlop

I am well aware that there was a previous thread regarding supply of Dunlop historic tyres but it is now becoming a major issue.

I race a 500cc Cooper and we use 5.00 x 15 and 4.50 x 15 R5 Dunlop Vintage Race Tyre.

For over three years we have been unable to source new tyres. As an alternative we have been permitted to use CR48 but this in itself has caused problems.

The CR48 tyre has a greater contact match and offers more grip. The cars become "over tyred" which is the most probable cause for several accidents that were seen in 2016.

My tyres are now 5 years old, we are not allowed use of tyre softener and Dunlop have a monopoly but do not want to produce our tyres.

I have spoken to a tyre company who would produce us tyres but he knows full well the minute that he did Dunlop would begin production.

We have an FIA appointed supplier of historic tyre who will not produce them. Either make Dunlop fulfill their obligations or find another manufacturer who will.

How long do we have to run around on old tyres? Who is responsible if it was proven that an old or "incorrect" tyre was the cause for a major accident?

Stuart Wright
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Old 26 Feb 2017, 22:05 (Ref:3714944)   #2
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Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I predicted in the older thread that Dunlops promises would turn out to be empty, at least in part

I WAS PROVED RIGHT !

the Dunlop statements were designed to buy quiet for a while at the expense of long term credibility

here are some bits of what the nice man from Dunlops wrote in 2015 on Ten Tenths:

"This is James Bailey from Dunlop.........

.....I'm very conscious of our obligations and grateful for the loyalty - and we are acutely aware that some of you don't have a choice of supplier due to regulations and I understand the frustrations and inconvenience caused by having to source or reuse tyres from other teams and drivers. However, we entered into this relocation because we are committed to servicing the historic racing market for the long term and we do appreciate your patience.

This year, we have made several thousand CR65 tyres and the situation is improving daily. However, the 'pent-up' demand is such that we are working flat out to get to a normal situation. I'm not going to answer questions on specific sizes on here because the situation is improving at such a rate that my answer will be out of date by the time many read it. Instead, our dealers have done a superb job in managing inventory and supply and they should be the point of contact for accurate information in this ever-improving situation."


the keywords here are: "patience" (on our part), also "frustration", (again on our part)
the rest is adspeak such as:
- "we are working flat out to get to a normal situation"
- "committed to servicing the historic racing market"
- "the situation is improving daily."

Yes, they have made a lot of tires, and the situation has improved a lot
but, for some minor classes such as 500 F3s, there is no solution

THERE IS NO REAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MANAGING THIS
so there wont be a solution

my guess is that Dunlops have a limited number of production slots available per year for historic racing tires, this number is not enough to cover all sizes required over a reasonable cycle of years

some simple techniques of stock management would have made that transparent
but transparency is not wanted

the FIA are probably afraid to really tackle the Dunlop business for a number of reasons, some legal, some commercial, some out of concern to make supply even worse

the 500 OA should opt out of this
make their own contract with a reliable supplier
they have the power to write the rules for their championship

Rudolf
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 05:24 (Ref:3714992)   #3
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Out of curiosity, is there another producer of tyres making the sizes and in the construction required?
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 06:31 (Ref:3715002)   #4
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Being cynical, I've always thought there was something dodgy going on re Dunlop and the fia, how could anyone have a monopoly and not bother taking advantage of it?

I've also always thought there should be at least 2 if not 3 options of supply, based round an fia sanctioned specification. Not only are Dunlops expensive, the quality has proven to be poor as well. Tyres are safety critical and they have been proven to be not fit for purpose on several occasions recently, that is dangerous and totally unacceptable.
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 06:43 (Ref:3715007)   #5
SJWBallistic
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SJWBallistic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
At the present time there are no options in production.
However one tyre manufacturer made it clear that to produce the correct item would not be an issue however they would need assurances that Dunlop would not suddenly produce them.
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 10:21 (Ref:3715077)   #6
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Somebody with some nous needs to tell Dunlop to F off.
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 10:40 (Ref:3715084)   #7
SJWBallistic
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Joe I agree with you totally.

In my opinion the FIA should be telling them to produce tyres of F off. The FIA gave them the monopoly. The FIA want us to use Dunlop tyres.

I just need a resolution so that I can buy some tyres.
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 15:16 (Ref:3715138)   #8
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I bought 8 good 2nd hand UK Dunlops a year ago for the Cortina, given I can't be bothered to race the Car at the moment its not a real issue at present . . . . but its been going on for years now, not months.
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Old 27 Feb 2017, 17:17 (Ref:3715165)   #9
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Do the 500s not have the power as an owner's association to decide what tyres are used for the championship? I didn't think your events were run under the durasdiction of the FIA.....
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Old 28 Feb 2017, 10:44 (Ref:3715297)   #10
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All,

we have a clear update of what is in production and what isn't, your case isn't the only one, other sizes and tyres have been stopped.

Dunlop is clear, they are getting over the problem but this will take time and they have to focus on what they can do in the best possible way, rather than trying to give a poor solution for all type and sizes that they could make.

On the other hand, also know that their GT3 tyres did suffer the same problem a while back ago when they moved the manufacture of these from UK to Germany so this is not just as simple as you would think.

Tooling, compounds, logistics, it is all far from easy but at least they are trying. Not as fast as you want certainly, but here, when talking with manufacturers, we haven't seen anybody willing to step in and produce a cross ply tyre the way Dunlop has been doing for the historic community.

By the way, nothing prevents any Championship through its Supplementary Regulations to allow any sort of tyres they want, the FIA even did it for its own Championships and due to the Dunlop problems.
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Old 28 Feb 2017, 11:32 (Ref:3715300)   #11
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Originally Posted by Duddha View Post
By the way, nothing prevents any Championship through its Supplementary Regulations to allow any sort of tyres they want, the FIA even did it for its own Championships and due to the Dunlop problems.
Thanks for confirming that, Duddha, and for the update from FIA's viewpoint.
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Old 28 Feb 2017, 16:01 (Ref:3715343)   #12
Duddha
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Originally Posted by Rudernst View Post
I predicted in the older thread that Dunlops promises would turn out to be empty, at least in part

I WAS PROVED RIGHT !

the Dunlop statements were designed to buy quiet for a while at the expense of long term credibility

here are some bits of what the nice man from Dunlops wrote in 2015 on Ten Tenths:

"This is James Bailey from Dunlop.........

.....I'm very conscious of our obligations and grateful for the loyalty - and we are acutely aware that some of you don't have a choice of supplier due to regulations and I understand the frustrations and inconvenience caused by having to source or reuse tyres from other teams and drivers. However, we entered into this relocation because we are committed to servicing the historic racing market for the long term and we do appreciate your patience.

This year, we have made several thousand CR65 tyres and the situation is improving daily. However, the 'pent-up' demand is such that we are working flat out to get to a normal situation. I'm not going to answer questions on specific sizes on here because the situation is improving at such a rate that my answer will be out of date by the time many read it. Instead, our dealers have done a superb job in managing inventory and supply and they should be the point of contact for accurate information in this ever-improving situation."


the keywords here are: "patience" (on our part), also "frustration", (again on our part)
the rest is adspeak such as:
- "we are working flat out to get to a normal situation"
- "committed to servicing the historic racing market"
- "the situation is improving daily."

Yes, they have made a lot of tires, and the situation has improved a lot
but, for some minor classes such as 500 F3s, there is no solution

THERE IS NO REAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MANAGING THIS
so there wont be a solution

my guess is that Dunlops have a limited number of production slots available per year for historic racing tires, this number is not enough to cover all sizes required over a reasonable cycle of years

some simple techniques of stock management would have made that transparent
but transparency is not wanted

the FIA are probably afraid to really tackle the Dunlop business for a number of reasons, some legal, some commercial, some out of concern to make supply even worse

the 500 OA should opt out of this
make their own contract with a reliable supplier
they have the power to write the rules for their championship

Rudolf
Rudolf, just to answer the last bit.

1 - There is no commercial agreement between Dunlop and the FIA.
2 - See FIA Masters Sports Car Championship Sporting Regulations which shows the allowed use of either Avons and/or Dunlops so nothing prevent any Championship of doing so.
3 - My general thought is that there are very few suppliers of period correct cross ply tyres around and very few that have the tooling to supply the whole world of historic as it is today. Don't just think of selling the tyres, it's all the tooling and moulds that are needed and this is not simple.

Cheers, Louis.
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Old 1 Mar 2017, 06:14 (Ref:3715457)   #13
zefarelly
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
So diplomatic Louis, even in type it's obvious you're not English

If an alternative manufacturer was seriously interested they would have shown their hand by now. I still think it's a poor show by Dunlop.
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Old 2 Mar 2017, 11:40 (Ref:3715791)   #14
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Originally Posted by Duddha View Post
Rudolf, just to answer the last bit.

1 - There is no commercial agreement between Dunlop and the FIA.
2 - See FIA Masters Sports Car Championship Sporting Regulations which shows the allowed use of either Avons and/or Dunlops so nothing prevent any Championship of doing so.
3 - My general thought is that there are very few suppliers of period correct cross ply tyres around and very few that have the tooling to supply the whole world of historic as it is today. Don't just think of selling the tyres, it's all the tooling and moulds that are needed and this is not simple.

Cheers, Louis.
Louis

If there is no commercial arrangement between the FIA and Dunlop why do the rules insist on Dunlop tyres?

If the FIA do not insist on Dunlop tyres perhaps they could make the race organisers aware of the situation which would allow people to look for alternatives.

There are some companies who would be prepared to offer tyres but there is no point going to the considerable expense that you know about if they can't be used (Blockley is an exception and has already made a considerable investment).

Also, many cars raced on road tyres in period (early Lotuses using Michelin X for example) but it does not seem possible to use such 'original' tyres these days.

Cheers
Peter
p.s. just looked at the Homologation forms and was amused to see that the two examples I picked showed different inlet manifolds on the engine photo to that of the inlet manifold. I assume scrutineers were not as rigorous in those days or were GT cars allowed more flexibility?
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Old 2 Mar 2017, 13:06 (Ref:3715816)   #15
Duddha
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Originally Posted by PeterMorley View Post
Louis

If there is no commercial arrangement between the FIA and Dunlop why do the rules insist on Dunlop tyres?

If the FIA do not insist on Dunlop tyres perhaps they could make the race organisers aware of the situation which would allow people to look for alternatives.

There are some companies who would be prepared to offer tyres but there is no point going to the considerable expense that you know about if they can't be used (Blockley is an exception and has already made a considerable investment).

Also, many cars raced on road tyres in period (early Lotuses using Michelin X for example) but it does not seem possible to use such 'original' tyres these days.

Cheers
Peter
p.s. just looked at the Homologation forms and was amused to see that the two examples I picked showed different inlet manifolds on the engine photo to that of the inlet manifold. I assume scrutineers were not as rigorous in those days or were GT cars allowed more flexibility?
Peter,

Dunlops into Appendix K should be read as pointed out below, fair and square.

As said, if an organizer wishes to run what he wants, that is his point through supplementary regulations and at National level, it is up to the relevant ASN to validate the ruling, FIA doesn't even look at it.

The Dunlop is in the FIA rules as well as Avons, Goodyears, etc. in the subsequent articles detailed under Article 8 of Appendix K as well as E or DOT tyres when relevant or authorized so it is more of a bad interpretation or let's say "legend" being circulated.

However and for particular Periods, if running strictly to FIA Appendix K - which is rarely the case these days - yes, the Dunlop is the reference tyre and this is due to the history of historic motor sport, mainly because Dunlop has been the relevant supplier for a very long time accross all categories. And no, we're not getting a penny on every tyre....

If organizers have a problem, the rules are available all around on internet, do they ask us the question, yes and we answer with what has just been pointed out or maybe, they simply do not care about rules or read but that is another problem.

E or DOT tyres are a given in hill climbs but again, an organizer can bring them in if he wishes to and if they comply with period dimensions. Something which can prove complicated these days. Look at the CR6 ZZ, nothing like a sixties' tyre in profile, compound or usage as it's a radial. Michelin, still do XAS, TB5 and TB15, etc.

If another fitment fits the criteria of a grid that is no longer supplied, then tell the organizer to write it down in its supplementary regulations.

I understand the issue of Dunlops but as said, the sport has grown in numbers and we're not talking of manufacturing t-shirts here, I would rather stick to Dunlops even if poor rather than bringing crazy setups and denaturing how old cars should behave, it should be all about powersliding!

PS - On Homologations, remember that for Period F, manufacturing of a 100 cars was required with standard specification, then, a manufacturer could homologate variants for engines, brakes, cooling, bodywork, etc.


8. TYRES
8.1 General

8.1.1 All cars taking part in Competitions on the International Sporting Calendar must comply with the following tyre regulations unless the approved specific Competition or series regulations vary. Such variations may be approved by the FIA which will be the final arbiter in the event of any dispute.
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