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Old 11 Mar 2017, 08:16 (Ref:3717947)   #1
ghinzani
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ghinzani should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridghinzani should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Is Karun Chandok saying Honda can engine test as much as they like?

I read this as him saying Honda can just stick the F1 engine in a Formula Nippon or an old NSX or suchlike. Have the rules changed on engine testing?
Quoted from Autosport.

"In a way, I'm a bit confused. I think back to the days of McLaren-Honda in the 1980s/1990s, when they permanently had cars running around Suzuka with Allan McNish or Jonathan Palmer or Emanuele Pirro doing development work over thousands of laps.

Geoff Willis said to me that when he worked at the next Honda project, how he and Anthony Davidson would run a test mule just doing the laps, getting the reliability and performance up.

Has Honda carried out that sort of programme in secret? If so it's not worked.

With all the resources Honda has in Japan, half the grid of Super Formula - those cars are bloody good, they are the next best thing to F1 - surely it could have a test hack running at Suzuka every single day just making that engine better?

I'm not able to understand why that's not worked out."
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 09:21 (Ref:3717954)   #2
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Good you post the link please ?
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 09:41 (Ref:3717957)   #3
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Starting from the back of the grid for more than 4 engine changes wouldn't seem much of a penalty for McLaren, so unlimited engine development would seem to be on the cards for Honda.
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 09:42 (Ref:3717958)   #4
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ghinzani should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridghinzani should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...-in-f1-testing
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 12:27 (Ref:3717978)   #5
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As best as I can tell testing rules (really restrictions) are split between full car (built to F1 spec) and aero testing. If you are not using a current or somewhat recent F1 car, then you can use a mule pretty much as you please. It is believed that Ferrari ran a mule in 2014 (plenty of photos online). I have read elsewhere that since then there may be a bit of a gentlemans agreement between the engine manufacturers to not run mules. The issue is in the cost of creating the mule (it's a bit more complex than just bolting it into something) plus the extra staff to rule the mule test program.

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Old 11 Mar 2017, 21:55 (Ref:3718071)   #6
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Honda could run a mule but didn't think it was worth it, the Dallara SF14 can not accommodate a current F1 power unit, the NSX GT500 could just about but the effort to do that would probably be more effort than it was worth.

Be nice to have the old days of the secret Honda test programmes with bespoke cars etc, but it is highly unlikely
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Old 12 Mar 2017, 13:47 (Ref:3718182)   #7
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spider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridspider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
http://m.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/350...mance-deficit/

I actually admire the honesty. Just hope for both companies' stakes they can get more power out of the unit asap...
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Old 12 Mar 2017, 23:36 (Ref:3718282)   #8
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mikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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http://m.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/350...mance-deficit/

I actually admire the honesty. Just hope for both companies' stakes they can get more power out of the unit asap...
I'm not sure it is entirely honest - well it is, but it could be more honest rather than making a frank and rather embarrassing statement.

There are some interesting comments on that link, and some raise a good point. Why did Honda rush to develop a new engine in such a tight timeframe, and also with a new design philosophy that they have labelled as "risky". I supposed hindsight is a wonderful thing and they would have (or will) look like heroes if it works. But with their recent track record what is the likelihood that it would work?

Again in hindsight, but wouldn't it have been much better to continue to develop the somewhat flawed 2016 engine but with a new turbo and ERS system? I know the layout of this engine had draw backs, but it would appear a development of this engine would at least be reliable if nothing else, giving them more opportunity to establish a foothold on the midfield pack. Meanwhile development of a 2017/18 spec engine can continue in the background and they could roll that engine out when required (and test it on Fridays!).

Now I'm sure there are valid reasons as to why they haven't done this, but we are all essentially left to speculate. Would it be so harmful for Honda to just come out with a few facts of the real challenges they are facing and how they are dealing with them? I for one would respect their situation and them more if they did.

I feel like McLaren-Honda are so determined to be "where they should be" that they are trying everything to be the best and falling well short. Instead they should try to be good and improve from there (in my opinion). I sure haven't forgotten how rubbish they were recently when they had a great engine in the back - a world championship winning engine for that matter. The problem is not all Honda.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 00:35 (Ref:3718285)   #9
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....... The problem is not all Honda.
I believe it is; this year's chassis is the best from the team for a long time and one of the best on the grid. Visibly better than others through corners.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 00:42 (Ref:3718286)   #10
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How do you know if a chassis is any good if the engine cant make it go fast enough to notice?
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 04:59 (Ref:3718298)   #11
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mikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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I believe it is; this year's chassis is the best from the team for a long time and one of the best on the grid. Visibly better than others through corners.
I haven't been able to see any decent coverage from the testing, so I'll take your word for it.

Personally I do think that the chassis/aero looks promising, but I guess what I'm saying in pointing the finger back at McLaren is bigger picture. I had time for Whitmarsh but for whatever reason the team didn't flourish under his guidance. If it was his fault directly I'm not sure, but I believe the team is still recovering from this period, and the recent changes with Ron coming back and then leaving again cannot have helped.

For example- the size zero constraints imposed by the team cannot have helped Honda. Or Perhaps Honda were told not to bother making a run of the mill "good" engine - they must make a scorcher. When I learned of the axial turbo set up I thought it was a fantastic idea - if it worked. Maybe they are trying again to do something huge but have misfired with this attempt also. Either way I don't think McLaren are the innocent, untouchable team who have done no wrong, let down by a PU supplier who doesn't know what they are doing.
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 05:57 (Ref:3718311)   #12
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
As best as I can tell testing rules (really restrictions) are split between full car (built to F1 spec) and aero testing. If you are not using a current or somewhat recent F1 car, then you can use a mule pretty much as you please. It is believed that Ferrari ran a mule in 2014 (plenty of photos online). I have read elsewhere that since then there may be a bit of a gentlemans agreement between the engine manufacturers to not run mules. The issue is in the cost of creating the mule (it's a bit more complex than just bolting it into something) plus the extra staff to rule the mule test program.

Richard
A test mule based on an LMP 2 car just for engine durabilty would be pretty straightforward with plenty of space for instrumentation and reasonable down force loadings Transient Dynos do replicate motion loadings which presumably is the oil feed issue
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Old 13 Mar 2017, 09:41 (Ref:3718340)   #13
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A test mule based on an LMP 2 car just for engine durabilty would be pretty straightforward with plenty of space for instrumentation and reasonable down force loadings Transient Dynos do replicate motion loadings which presumably is the oil feed issue
It's absolutely doable. However I believe my comments (here and in the testing thread) as to why it's not done still stands. Potential gentlemens agreement to abstain, non trivial amount of work to create a mule (regardless of platforms such as LMP2), and cost of running a mule team in parallel with existing dev and test efforts.

I can only comment on what I have read elsewhere, but my impression is that Honda had tried many variants in their design process and maybe spent too much time in the experimental phase vs picking a direction and polishing it to obtain things like reliability, drivability, etc. I would think that running a mule would be part of that last phase. My point is they may unfortunately (only they know) have never been far enough along to be using a mule effectively. Or they just had a huge amount of faith in however they were developing and testing already.

And oil tank issues is the least of their problems. I suspect that has already been solved.

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Old 13 Mar 2017, 12:47 (Ref:3718368)   #14
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On a related note of using a existing prototype chassis as an F1 engine mule. In the early 1980's Porsche installed the Porsche made TAG V6 turbo into a 956 prototype.

Plenty of speculation as to what Honda's issue is, but some say potentially ICE vibrations that cause problems with the MGU-K (which is directly driven by the crankshaft per regulations). All of which seems to be driving some type of electrical insulation failure. You would ask why this wasn't discovered in internal testing? Maybe it is something related to the dynamics of it being installed in the F1 chassis?

Then if you wonder if that exact issue may have shaken out in mule testing, you should ask questions about how close a mule can be to the F1 car. It would have to have the McLaren transmission (I assume McLaren makes that and not Honda), the correct suspension loading on the engine as a stressed member, etc. Then you wonder if the weight of a prototype might not match up well. I don't now how much ballast is placed in a typical LMP2, but the class runs at ~930kg while F1 is at ~700kg (25% lighter). Lots of variables that in some ways they can control better on chassis rigs (other than g forces). I also expect dynamic simulations in dynos (including full simulations of each circuit they race it) should the norm for helping to get baseline engine maps vs. having a test driver pound around a single test track.

Here is the oft shown example that Porsche uses...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc

It can only however simulate 1G which would seem like enough for oil pickup, but it doesn't simulate things like de-foaming ability of oil in a tank at high g levels.

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Old 13 Mar 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3718380)   #15
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I have friend who works for mclaren in the road car department (in the mclaren technology centre) and he says he has spoken to the race team guys. What they say, is that Honda could of matched the Mercedes but they would always be trying to catch up, but apprently Honda have gone outside the box to be faster (not match Mercedes engine wise) and this is Gavin all sorts of teething problems.

This is hear say from a good friend, but I don't k know the truth behind the story.
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