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Old 19 Mar 2017, 17:11 (Ref:3720038)   #1261
FIRE
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Originally Posted by Rcz View Post
Cars with spec parts tend to get overbuilt and thus get more heavy then intended.

CN cars are great, but if they came in to replace the current lite car then they would use a spec engine from whatever manufacture decides to sponser it. Most likely Mazda.
From the FIA.
CN cars must have a engine source from a Group N class (aka touring cars) with a maximum of 3L and 6 cylinders. No racing engines allowed.

They is some spec car series like the radical cup that use V8s however.
This was posted on DSC Yesterday:

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In the first ever VdeV pre-season press conference, series organiser Eric Van der Vyver was keen to show off the new generation of CN engine which is set for use from 2017 onwards.

Produced by RDM, it’s a turbo-charged bespoke engine for use in the VdeV Endurance Proto series, which promises to be a significant upgrade over the older Honda engine which has even used since the early 2000s.

No teams on site here are using the new RDM powerplant, but there’s interest within the paddock from some teams wishing to upgrade going forward.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...%E2%80%A8.html
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Old 19 Mar 2017, 18:09 (Ref:3720041)   #1262
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Originally Posted by 10TENTHS View Post
You can't really judge the LMP3 by the speed of the greybeards. Jamin, Gutierrez and Thompson were noticeably faster.

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF (Jamin was almost 3 seconds quicker than Kyle Masson in the leading Elan)

http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF
There's a reason I'm not going SOLELY by the IMSA results in addressing this matter. I draw the comparison to CN a lot not just because I'm a proponent of CN, but because it's a valid poin to consider. If I've got to decide between two classes of car that can be used in a multitude of international championships, and both run at about the same pace, I'm gonna go with the one that's half the price.

In point of fact, when it comes to where you can race a CN car vs an LMP3, there's actually only two places you can run LMP3 and NOT CN right now; ELMS and IMSA Prototype Challenge. Every other series that runs prototype classes has both.

The problem with those guys up front in IMSA, however, is that those speeds have generally been the exception rather than the rule. Only the absolute slowest P3 drivers should be anywhere near the lap times of the slower class. You can bet good money that if this was happening in the Weathertech series, IMSA would be doing something about it.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 18:16.
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Old 19 Mar 2017, 18:11 (Ref:3720042)   #1263
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Originally Posted by Rcz View Post
Cars with spec parts tend to get overbuilt and thus get more heavy then intended.
This I know, but even then they're usually a fair bit underweight.

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CN cars are great, but if they came in to replace the current lite car then they would use a spec engine from whatever manufacture decides to sponser it. Most likely Mazda.
This is exactly what I've proposed for P Lites/Challenge in the past.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Mar 2017 at 18:19.
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Old 19 Mar 2017, 18:24 (Ref:3720044)   #1264
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Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Taking a 100kg of weight out of the chassis might put them into the zone where they would build cars to a loss. Where do you even want to safe that if you can't touch the power train? I am having a hard time finding numbers for the weight of the powertrain, but 100kg could easily be 15-20% of the weight of the actual chassis!
I do not know where to go in light of the revelation that the car has barely made minimum weight. All of my statements were based on the understanding that the car was still built underweight.

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Less so, since the Elans make their laptimes in the same way the P3s do: Fast in the corners, relatively slow on the straights. Thus, there's less need for the sort of dive-bomb moves often seen in competition against GT-cars that can only be passed in the corners.
If the cars are mixing it up regularly and don't have an easy time breaking away from each other, collisions are just as valid a concern.

They also DON'T get their laptimes completely the same way. Only in the most generalized sense are they the same. Maintaining momentum is far more important in the DP02s than in the LMP3s due to how much less torque the Mazda engines in the Elan have.
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Old 19 Mar 2017, 18:33 (Ref:3720045)   #1265
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Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Yes but dont vdv follow its own rules differently from the FIA?
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Old 19 Mar 2017, 18:48 (Ref:3720052)   #1266
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Originally Posted by Rcz View Post
Yes but dont vdv follow its own rules differently from the FIA?
Up until this, they followed the FIA rules rather closely. All of the cars in Proto Endurance were 100% in line with the FIA CN regs.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 19:01 (Ref:3720277)   #1267
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
Oh, yes. It's faith. P3 is simply not priced to race on the level this series is meant to be at. Unless there's some major changes going forward, this will eventually become a problem. Keep in mind the series wasn't exactly strong(barely managing double-digit car counts) when it was just running the nice and cheap Elans.
So an improved coverage plan to include both sound and vision, new cars that can be paid for, run long distances, and make a great stepping stone to bigger/faster photos, and the efforts of both IMSA and Mazda to push it forward into a true development ground won't have any effect? Right.

Based on the conversation I had over the weekend with both teams, and manufacturers... you've got no clue.

IMSA has chosen P3, they are working hard to make it a success, and it will be..
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 21:48 (Ref:3720300)   #1268
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So an improved coverage plan to include both sound and vision, new cars that can be paid for, run long distances, and make a great stepping stone to bigger/faster photos, and the efforts of both IMSA and Mazda to push it forward into a true development ground won't have any effect? Right.
You say that as if LMP3 was the only means with which to gain any of that. Do I need to retread the realities of that other class I'm pushing yet again? I certainly hope not because even I'm getting sick of harping on that.

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IMSA has chosen P3, they are working hard to make it a success, and it will be..
Not if people involved start questioning the point of paying double the price for cars that are barely any faster.

IMSA can push it all they want, but if they can't justify the increased expense it can easily come to nothing.

So yes, it IS faith. You have no way of knowing how it's going to turn out. (nor do I, but that's why I characterize my points as CONCERNS, not a definite future)
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 00:34 (Ref:3720328)   #1269
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
You say that as if LMP3 was the only means with which to gain any of that. Do I need to retread the realities of that other class I'm pushing yet again? I certainly hope not because even I'm getting sick of harping on that.
CN was never considered. Was never going to be considered, and never will be. You need to get over that. Post after post after post of useless CN drivel as it was some savior to a class that's well adopted the new format and will continue to do so based upon the orders that have yet to be fulfilled.

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Not if people involved start questioning the point of paying double the price for cars that are barely any faster.
They won't. The teams buying these cars know they'll eventually be able to sell rides, and their investments are going to be amortized over a number of seasons. Once they are paid off, much like PC, each team will be able to build a business off of it.

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if they can't justify the increased expense.
you keep saying this... but... clearly plenty of people here and abroad are fine to pay the Canadian pesos to purchase and run the cars.

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So yes, it IS faith. You have no way of knowing how it's going to turn out. (nor do I,
Whilst I may not be Nostradamus... I'm pretty confident when I say that P3 is going to be quite the success in both IMSA and the US.
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 01:15 (Ref:3720330)   #1270
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Originally Posted by MoMedic9019 View Post
CN was never considered. Was never going to be considered, and never will be.
And as long as they continue to use the outdated junk, I will be pointing out how bad a decision that was.

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Post after post after post of useless CN drivel as it was some savior to a class
Excuse me? A savior? Sorry, but no, I've never promoted the class as anything of the sort. Maybe you should pay attention to the points being brought up instead of being dismissive.

I'll note for starters that I've never once said CN should have been adopted over LMP3. You may also note I've never said IMSA should just throw out LMP3.

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that's well adopted the new format and will continue to do so based upon the orders that have yet to be fulfilled.
ALLEGED orders. We have no way of knowing that the claimed orders have occurred until they're actually filled(if they ever are).

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They won't. The teams buying these cars know they'll eventually be able to sell rides, and their investments are going to be amortized over a number of seasons.
And those drivers are still going to have to pay more to cover the cost, and eventually those drivers are going to question why they have to pay so much more for something that's not any quicker than the other option.

(and let's not get into when the cars get revised after homologation expires - too many ways as to how that can turn out to try and account for it)

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Once they are paid off, much like PC, each team will be able to build a business off of it.
Couple big differences between this and PC: The P3 cars aren't in the top series. The PC cars were. The PC cars are also faster vehicles - PC pole at Sebring was 3 seconds faster than P3.

If the P3 cars were as fast as PC, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I wouldn't be using CN to illustrate of what needs to be fixed in LMP3, I'd only be mentioning it when lamenting IMSA's refusal to replace the outdated Elan junkers.

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you keep saying this... but... clearly plenty of people here and abroad are fine to pay the Canadian pesos to purchase and run the cars.
For now, yes(though not in as large a number as CN cars). There's a reason all of my concerns are regarding the long term.

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Whilst I may not be Nostradamus... I'm pretty confident when I say that P3 is going to be quite the success in both IMSA and the US.
Like I said, it's all faith. You have it, I don't.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 01:24 (Ref:3720519)   #1271
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
And as long as they continue to use the outdated junk, I will be pointing out how bad a decision that was.



Excuse me? A savior? Sorry, but no, I've never promoted the class as anything of the sort. Maybe you should pay attention to the points being brought up instead of being dismissive.

I'll note for starters that I've never once said CN should have been adopted over LMP3. You may also note I've never said IMSA should just throw out LMP3.



ALLEGED orders. We have no way of knowing that the claimed orders have occurred until they're actually filled(if they ever are).



And those drivers are still going to have to pay more to cover the cost, and eventually those drivers are going to question why they have to pay so much more for something that's not any quicker than the other option.

(and let's not get into when the cars get revised after homologation expires - too many ways as to how that can turn out to try and account for it)



Couple big differences between this and PC: The P3 cars aren't in the top series. The PC cars were. The PC cars are also faster vehicles - PC pole at Sebring was 3 seconds faster than P3.

If the P3 cars were as fast as PC, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I wouldn't be using CN to illustrate of what needs to be fixed in LMP3, I'd only be mentioning it when lamenting IMSA's refusal to replace the outdated Elan junkers.



For now, yes(though not in as large a number as CN cars). There's a reason all of my concerns are regarding the long term.



Like I said, it's all faith. You have it, I don't.
But so far nothing you have moaned about and told how much smarter you are than the actual teams has EVER come to fruition so at this point your opinion is looking more vindictive pessimism than actually fully developed points. Just because you whine here and Racer doesn't make you knowledgeable, it means you ruin two sites like a certain often banned DJ from CA.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 04:01 (Ref:3720538)   #1272
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But so far nothing you have moaned about and told how much smarter you are than the actual teams has EVER come to fruition
I'd be amazed if any things I've referred to ever came true simply because I've never made any predictions nor ever claimed to be smarter than any team. Opinions and concerns =/= predictions or claims of superior intelligence.

Well, I'll partially take that back... There was that ONE thing I made an express and deliberate prediction on - And it still amazes me that nobody's yet put two and two together about that matter, given the overall situation.

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so at this point your opinion is looking more vindictive pessimism than actually fully developed points. Just because you whine here and Racer doesn't make you knowledgeable, it means you ruin two sites like a certain often banned DJ from CA.
Well, maybe if people actually considered the points I'm trying to make instead of twisting them to suit whatever they'd prefer to cast me as, there'd be fewer problems. I've lost count of how many times I've made point X, and someone's come along to bash on the point by bringing up completely unrelated matters or interpreting my comments in ways that are unsupported by the statements made.

This matter's been a perfect example of the latter, in fact - I proposed that the LMP3s should be sped up and provided a point of comparison to outline why, and I'm getting all but accused of wanting to throw LMP3 to the curb in favor of my "precious CN cars." (that was not an actual quote, of course, just a simplification of how people appear to be looking at how I view CN)

And "whining?" If what I've done is whining to you, I think you need to look around a bit more - not just here, but everywhere. However bitter you may interpret my viewpoints as, actually trying to debate the matter certainly isn't "whining." By the definition you appear to be using, any form of criticism is whining.

Keep in mind, this all started because a certain someone didn't like the fact that I called the lack of a significant gap between the LMP3 and MPC poles at Sebring "unimpressive." Is that whining? No, it's criticism. Not even unfairly harsh criticism, either - criticism with valid logic behind it.

You know what I'd classify as whining? Complaining about an entire 12 hour endurance race simply because the finish wasn't close - something numerous users here and elsewhere are quite guilty of.

At least I'm trying to actually debate my point, and make clear what I've been trying to say amidst a mess of misunderstanding, rather than attacking anybody who dares not agree with it.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 04:11 (Ref:3720539)   #1273
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At least I'm trying to actually debate my point, and make clear what I've been trying to say amidst a mess of misunderstanding, rather than attacking anybody who dares not agree with it.
Debate would actually involve intelligence and an ability to develop in idea, sadly your posts show you are a broken record of because I said so. No actual USEABLE ideas are posted, no speed them up by doing x, y or z. But rather I think no one would want to buy a car that isn't faster, and yet wait what's that?? I hear LMP3 cars actually running. Oops, guess your point was VERY far off the mark. You can NOT make a conclusion that no one would want to run an LMP3 because you think they aren't fast enough. Teams have purchased, drivers have raced and they are building more. But then I guess concrete sales shown by cars on track means nothing to you.

Please try debate by responding with a team, a driver, a SINGLE PERSON in racing who has said LMP3 is too slow and they can't sell it. Even one, a single person who is in the position to actual run a car. That would actually be debate, saying I'm right, I'm right, you'll see I'm right is not debate. Well unless you're Melissa McCarthy's alter ego.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 07:02 (Ref:3720565)   #1274
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Debate would actually involve intelligence and an ability to develop in idea, sadly your posts show you are a broken record of because I said so. No actual USEABLE ideas are posted, no speed them up by doing x, y or z.
You are completely wrong on this. I HAVE given ideas on how to speed them up. One has been revealed to be more problematic than I had been aware of(lightening the cars) the other is still theoretically possible, if possibly not as easy as I implied(boosting the power).

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But rather I think no one would want to buy a car that isn't faster, and yet wait what's that?? I hear LMP3 cars actually running. Oops, guess your point was VERY far off the mark.
No it's not because, again, my point was NEVER that it couldn't work or isn't working. That's you twisting(whether deliberately or not, I won't assume) what I've said.

My point has always been that IN THE LONGRUN, it is something that COULD BECOME an issue. And it's one that can, and I feel should be, considered and addressed before that possibility can become a reality.

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You can NOT make a conclusion that no one would want to run an LMP3 because you think they aren't fast enough.
You're right. I can't. That's why I didn't.

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Teams have purchased, drivers have raced and they are building more. But then I guess concrete sales shown by cars on track means nothing to you.
Again, you're asserting I've said things I simply haven't. While I question the number of orders claimed(and will do so until they all have appeared, as I do for all types of cars in all types of classes, I do not and have never denied the presence of the cars on the track. To claim I've ignored this s to ignore virtually EVEYTHING I've said on the matter.

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Please try debate by responding with a team, a driver, a SINGLE PERSON in racing who has said LMP3 is too slow and they can't sell it.
I won't. Because I am not, and never was, asserting this is a current issue, or even that it is a GUARANTEED issue for the future(again concerns do not equal predictions).

If you're actually willing to reconsider your assessment of my assertions in light of this, I will be glad to continue debate. Here or in PM depending on moderation's view of whether or not we're dragging this thread off topic.

But if you'd rather remain unwilling to consider the reality of my stance on the matter, there is no point in further debate.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 12:17 (Ref:3720638)   #1275
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My thoughts about seeing them at Sebring is that I liked the pace, the look and the sound. The pace was decent at the sharp end but faded very quickly through the field in the first race. Think the top 2 lapped the field up to 3rd? I'm unsure if it's prep or wheel talent or both, but I'd like to see some improvement in the middle to bottom end of the field. The potential is certainly seems to be there.
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