IMSA Race 2017 12 Hours of Sebring - Page 22

Maelochs · 22 Mar 2017, 15:32 (Ref:3720668)

How was there no competition when the margin of victory was only 13 seconds and either Mustang Sampling or Konica-Minolta could have won overall?

When Porsche 956/962 won everything, because everybody ahd one, did that racing suck?

That's where I think I disagree with some others. So, two Cadillacs were the only two P-class contenders at the end---I have seen a bunch of similar races in several series when it was two team cars, and no one complained and everyone was excited to see who would win (Ahhh ... Daytona 2016.)

It seems some folks just don't like the Cadillacs ...

Anyway ... TF110, I am glad you enjoyed the experience overall. I think you are crazy to be a Toyota fan ... and I know, because I am a Toyota fan. I expect less and get even less than that at every race. Le Mans was the ultimate Toyota nutshot .... for a few minutes I didn't even like racing.

But still, I hope for them.

I am a Mazda fan, too ... maybe I was dropped on my head as an infant or something.

I really don't want this to continue on as a debate because it will become a bickering session .... done that enough.

So ... glad you enjoyed what you did. I hope future races give you more opportunities to enjoy in whatever manner you find most suitable.

I depart on this note:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I know there is disagreement over BoP, which I understand, but as far as a spectacle is concerned, I think we have a hit on our hands folks. The variety of sights and sounds is truly enthralling. Please do yourself a favor and make it to an IMSA race this year if you can. I got goosebumps during the parade laps for the first time in many years. Despite the reliability right now, dat Gibson V8... you WEC fans are in for a treat too.

TF110 · 22 Mar 2017, 17:05 (Ref:3720690)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Double standard? For disagreeing with your assessment? Huh?

We've cleared up the prototype / overall race posts ago. You seem to want to keep beating that drum like it's a point.

No. You still don't understand what I'm saying. It's really easy, the double standard is that if your opinion is positive about the p-class, that's ok, but not if you didn't have a positive look at the p-class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Your point on DPs was hit home the first two times you mentioned you didn't like them in this discussion. Please feel free to mention one more time you don't like them in case I missed it and call me touchy about it.

I never said you were "touchy" about it. Funniest part of your statement? You brought up me liking dp's (their races) because it was close. So? That's irrelevant to my opinion about this race and one class. It's a strawman argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I disagreed, provided specific reasons for doing so and you have repeated your original reasons, in different words without addressing any of my points. That's fine.

It's a BoP series so they'll never run "free", but glad you you like something about them.

I never said great. It was enjoyable. Good grief.

There's another one. Putting words into my post that I never attributed to you. And I don't have to explain why I don't enjoy a walk over in a bop class. It's self explanatory. That's all I have to say about it. Glad you enjoyed the race, I enjoyed a lot of it myself. I just hope the top class has more than one reliable contender going forward. I'm sure you can agree with that.

seanyb505 · 22 Mar 2017, 18:15 (Ref:3720709)

Daytona was a walk over. That was the intention. Decisions were made leading up to and during the race to ensure that leading Cadillacs on Continentals were not threatened.

Sebring was a fair fight. Unfortunately, some teams did not execute well for long enough in the race to display that. The show at Daytona left such a bad taste in the mouths of some that the fair fight at Sebring is hard to see.

My lasting thought on 2017 Sebring was that major periods of green flag running were fun to watch. And as Pach said a few pages back, it was good to see various strategies and plots play out unhindered by too many cautions.

MoMedic9019 · 22 Mar 2017, 18:38 (Ref:3720718)

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Sebring was a fair fight. Unfortunately, some teams did not execute well for long enough in the race to display that. The show at Daytona left such a bad taste in the mouths of some that the fair fight at Sebring is hard to see.

Caddy had multiple BoP changes leading up to the race, and were still able to turn the fast laps..... how much faster could they have gone?

Certain people called me crazy for suggesting that GM runs to a delta time, and that I had no proof...

Pretty sure it's blatant now huh? They won Daytona, they won Sebring... guess who doesn't give a crap about the rest of the year? GM. They know that whatever BoP is thrown at them, they will be able to walk off and win everything.

Maelochs · 22 Mar 2017, 18:58 (Ref:3720723)

One benefit of the two-year-long U.S. election cycle: I got used to hearing people I otherwise respected spout some ridiculous and completely unfounded BS ... and learned to live with it.

Now when I come here, instead of saying, “”If you hate the series so much, don’t watch and don’t post here” I just go into some bliss mode and float right over the pile of droppings in my path.

First time in my life I have been glad about the two-freaking-years-too--long U.S. election cycle.

fieldodreams79 · 22 Mar 2017, 19:58 (Ref:3720741)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF110

No. You still don't understand what I'm saying. It's really easy, the double standard is that if your opinion is positive about the p-class, that's ok, but not if you didn't have a positive look at the p-class.

You made a point. A counter point was made. You made same point again and said I missed something. Then some diatribe into semantics of posts started. I don't care if you're positive or negative on the subject. I'm curious as to why and curiosity is killing this cat.

Quote:

I never said you were "touchy" about it. Funniest part of your statement? You brought up me liking dp's (their races) because it was close. So? That's irrelevant to my opinion about this race and one class. It's a strawman argument.

Oh, so DPs must be a touchy subject for you then.

And they were brought up because they were close, competitive races in the p-class, the lack of which being your only stated reason for not enjoying Sebring, and your response is you don't like DPs. Okay? And?

Quote:

There's another one. Putting words into my post that I never attributed to you. And I don't have to explain why I don't enjoy a walk over in a bop class. It's self explanatory. That's all I have to say about it. Glad you enjoyed the race, I enjoyed a lot of it myself. I just hope the top class has more than one reliable contender going forward. I'm sure you can agree with that.

You don't have to explain it but you love explaining why apparently I don't understand and am missing something without bringing something new to the discussion when a counter opinion to yours is offered. Seems odd to me.

Yes, I'd like to see more cars contending. Who wouldn't?

schmidder · 23 Mar 2017, 04:39 (Ref:3720811)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

You made a point. A counter point was made. You made same point again and said I missed something. Then some diatribe into semantics of posts started. I don't care if you're positive or negative on the subject. I'm curious as to why and curiosity is killing this cat.

Oh, so DPs must be a touchy subject for you then.

And they were brought up because they were close, competitive races in the p-class, the lack of which being your only stated reason for not enjoying Sebring, and your response is you don't like DPs. Okay? And?

You don't have to explain it but you love explaining why apparently I don't understand and am missing something without bringing something new to the discussion when a counter opinion to yours is offered. Seems odd to me.

Yes, I'd like to see more cars contending. Who wouldn't?

Really hoping this little back and forth either goes offline or goes away. Enough already folks...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

fieldodreams79 · 23 Mar 2017, 17:17 (Ref:3720938)

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmidder

Really hoping this little back and forth either goes offline or goes away. Enough already folks...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

I'd prefer to talk about the race, too but I also generally ignore these "debates", unless I'm involved.

Speaking of which, I'm still recovering from the weekend voyage south.

MaskedRacer · 23 Mar 2017, 17:35 (Ref:3720941)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I'd prefer to talk about the race, too but I also generally ignore these "debates", unless I'm involved.

Speaking of which, I'm still recovering from the weekend voyage south.

The Sebring 12 along with Daytona kind of turned out like what I hoped, which was for the GT classes to be a all out battle between multiple cars the whole way through, while the prototype class went back to the old days where it was a real test of mechanical endurance. I kind of like the "fast but fragile" protos of yesteryear. I think the prototypes should be fragile mechanically. Apparently everybody but Cadillac got the memo. Looks like they are just picking up where the Corvette DP left off.

fieldodreams79 · 23 Mar 2017, 17:55 (Ref:3720945)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

The Sebring 12 along with Daytona kind of turned out like what I hoped, which was for the GT classes to be a all out battle between multiple cars the whole way through, while the prototype class went back to the old days where it was a real test of mechanical endurance. I kind of like the "fast but fragile" protos of yesteryear. I think the prototypes should be fragile mechanically. Apparently everybody but Cadillac got the memo. Looks like they are just picking up where the Corvette DP left off.

Indeed. I'd like to see some of the others work their issues out, but won't hold my breath for it. Especially for Mazda...I'd never breath again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Sebring data c/o NASportscar

http://nasportscar.com/2017-weathert...rs-of-sebring/

Finally got the chance to look at this (been open in the browser for days). 347 laps @ the 108.1 mph was about 40 short of the 2009 record set by McNish/Capello/Kristensen in an Audi R15 TDI @ 117.98 mph average. Thats 1471 miles to 1301 here. I was wondering this during the race but proved to be difficult to find towards the end of the day Saturday for some odd reason....thought I'd share it now that I found it!

Corvette #3 had two more stops than the Fords, but hing around and were quick when it counted.

Lots of other good info in there. Cheers, nasportscar!

**joeb** · 23 Mar 2017, 20:00 (Ref:3720970)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Indeed. I'd like to see some of the others work their issues out, but won't hold my breath for it. Especially for Mazda...I'd never breath again.

You might not know this, but i'm a mazda fan. I do find it odd that some form of that engine (or a very similar one) has been running in IMSA for almost 10 years and they have had the same types of reliability issues since day 1. Never stop polishing boys, never stop polishing.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Finally got the chance to look at this (been open in the browser for days). 347 laps @ the 108.1 mph was about 40 short of the 2009 record set by McNish/Capello/Kristensen in an Audi R15 TDI @ 117.98 mph average. Thats 1471 miles to 1301 here. I was wondering this during the race but proved to be difficult to find towards the end of the day Saturday for some odd reason....thought I'd share it now that I found it!

Corvette #3 had two more stops than the Fords, but hing around and were quick when it counted.

Lots of other good info in there. Cheers, nasportscar!

I wondered what the record distance was. I always like to keep track of that type of thing while watching the race, and I believe I was at that 2009 race. I must be good luck. And fyi, both mazdas were a DNF in that one......

Matt · 23 Mar 2017, 20:08 (Ref:3720972)

Mazda needs to dump AER asap.

Maelochs · 23 Mar 2017, 20:24 (Ref:3720974)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Mazda needs to dump AER asap.

That Meccachrome engine looks hot ....

Oddly I don't recall AER having any trouble in Pro Mazda or Indy Lights. It's not like they cannot build a reliable engine .... maybe not a reliable competitive engine .....

Akrapovic · 23 Mar 2017, 20:28 (Ref:3720976)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maelochs

That Meccachrome engine looks hot ....

Oddly I don't recall AER having any trouble in Pro Mazda or Indy Lights. It's not like they cannot build a reliable engine .... maybe not a reliable competitive engine .....

Used to do quite well in Europe. ELMS wins and Le Mans class wins. Always seemed to find itself blowing up in the US, usually in the back of Dysons and Mazdas.

fieldodreams79 · 23 Mar 2017, 20:36 (Ref:3720981)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Used to do quite well in Europe. ELMS wins and Le Mans class wins. Always seemed to find itself blowing up in the US, usually in the back of Dysons and Mazdas.

Intersport ran them as well in the states.

The 4 cyl motor needs too much turbo to keep pace and blamo.

Matt · 23 Mar 2017, 20:46 (Ref:3720983)

Make em 3.0l 4 cylinders and I feel they'll suddenly be much more reliable.

Rcz · 23 Mar 2017, 22:58 (Ref:3721009)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Make em 3.0l 4 cylinders and I feel they'll suddenly be much more reliable.

"Bring back the offy"

jimclark · 24 Mar 2017, 00:24 (Ref:3721022)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Intersport ran them as well in the states.
The 4 cyl motor needs too much turbo to keep pace and blamo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Make em 3.0l 4 cylinders and I feel they'll suddenly be much more reliable.

field - Dan might differ with you.

Matt - His 2.1 was "fairly" successful

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rcz

"Bring back the offy"

Yup. If your talkin' Indy, 2.65 worked fine.

(edit: We won't even bring up the BMW 1.5 F1 turbos...ooopppss...'just did...)

Rcz · 24 Mar 2017, 00:56 (Ref:3721030)

Porsche is making it work with a 2L v4 that puts out 600hp

jimclark · 24 Mar 2017, 00:59 (Ref:3721031)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rcz

Porsche is making it work with a 2L v4 that puts out 600hp

Si, senor. You're preachin' to the choir.

Maelochs · 24 Mar 2017, 01:02 (Ref:3721032)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimclark

field - Dan might differ with you.

Matt - His 2.1 was "fairly" successful

Yup. If your talkin' Indy, 2.65 worked fine.

(edit: We won't even bring up the BMW 1.5 F1 turbos...ooopppss...'just did...)

Well ... I don't recall Any car with a smaller engine, turbo or not, keeping up with the 917s .....

And yes, in F1 a 1200-bhp grenade provided some good racing .... but could that same engine last for 12 or 24 hours? They often didn't last two hours.

And could those 1.5 turbo BMWs have pulled a 950-kg sports car out of a corner as well as a 6.2-liter NA V8? Nobody says that Mazdas can't hit top speed .... but we all saw 2-liter turbo vs 5'5-liter V8 at Petit last year .... and the winner was not the 2-liter four.

If Mazda can make them last---Wunderbar. I have been wanting that team to win since the started losing badly in their first race. As others have said, holding my breath might not be the best course of action.

If Dan Gurney were to sign on with Mazda or AER ... well that would be different.

Matt · 24 Mar 2017, 02:23 (Ref:3721036)

It's not the size of the engine in particular in general. It's the fact it's AER.

I feel like an AER 3.0l 4 cylinder would be far more reliable than an AER 2.0l 4 cylinder, due to the less stress it would have to endure.

...but I mean hey if you wanna think I think all small displacement racing engines can't be reliable, more power to you.

RWill2073 · 24 Mar 2017, 04:17 (Ref:3721051)

Bring back the rotary! If you're gonna suck, sound great and be unique!

jimclark · 24 Mar 2017, 07:18 (Ref:3721073)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Bring back the rotary! If you're gonna suck, sound great and be unique!

Surely you jest?!

Where's "suck" come from?

'Nearly unbreakable.

Many, many, many wins, podiums and championships in IMSA RS, GTU, GTO, and GTP Lights.
(Ask Jim Downing, Roger Mandeville, or Jim Busby if they sucked and would rather not have employed them.

)
Victories at Le Mans.
A world championship in C2.

Yeah, the rotary "sucked"......I guess.

jimclark · 24 Mar 2017, 07:28 (Ref:3721074)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

...but I mean hey if you wanna think I think all small displacement racing engines can't be reliable, more power to you.

Absolutely not. Hostility is rather non-productive.

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