If finances are grim now - wot happens when the fags go?

[Hugh Jarce]

As a relative new boy, who's delight at reaching 1000 posts is a long way off (see thread 'oops is another F1 team about to bite the dust') you 'old hands' may have discussed this one before (or at least 100 times). So, while some of you may well yawn - enlighten me 'the novice'.

If several teams are on the verge of financially 'hitting the wall' as things stands, wot on earth will happen when the fag money goes.

'Ahh' - you may say, look to the IT industry e.g Compaq, IBM and HP. They are still around and have lots of bucks spare. Mmmm, but for how long?

Or what about the 'coms' companies e.g Vodafone or Cable and Wireless - but look at their share prices.

Well, in the past F1 could have looked to major airlines - but how many of them will be left in a couple of years - Aeroflot?

So, how on earth will teams get the mega-bucks needed when so many historically 'rich veins' of dosh are going to be really up against it, before shelling out collosal sums to put a logo on a helmet?

Is the only way - very very rich individuals / families / engine manufacturers who will then call ALL the shots as is now the case with the 'gee gees' or even football teams. I mean look at Fulham and El Fayed - £28M on players from his own pocket - but then at that price who dare say anything out of line.

The future looks somewhat interesting.

[Ray Bell]

Less money means slower development, but it won't stop them.

Of course, a few of the teams have accumulated wealth that could possibly keep them going for a while.

And no small number of 'fag' makers have other companies they have bought with their ill-gotten gains that might keep the dollars rolling in to promote them along.

[ma]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
wot on earth will happen when the fag money goes.

When did the limp wrist crowd start sponsoring F1?????

[Crash and Burn]

Williams and a few others don't have fag money - and they are ok - so I'm sure the rest will Ferrari get a large chunk of there money from Shell. So it will effect them when there main sponser goes - that will be a shock. Mclaren - I think this team will be hit the hardest with the West sponser.

[Hugh Jarce]

To date Benetton-Renault seem to have had Mild Seven pasted in the expensive slots.

[Hugh Jarce]

By the way 'Crash and Burn' are you an insomniac or do you also have young kids who don't understand about the hour change!

[Nicholas]

BAR will be pretty hard hit. If they can't manage with tobacco money, what will it be like without?

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by Crash and Burn
Ferrari get a large chunk of there money from Shell. So it will effect them when there main sponser goes - that will be a shock. Mclaren - I think this team will be hit the hardest with the West sponser.

Ferrari get millions in backing from Fiat, and McLaren have backing from DaimlerBenz, so I wouldn't expect them to be hit hardest when tobacco companies are forced to withdraw.

It'd have to be BAR - their operation is funded mainly by BAT, and when they can't sponsor them anymore they are really going to suffer. Which of course would be perfect if Honda are looking for a works team...

[Maxmil]

Ferrari will lose Marlboro, and McLaren West, but both have manufacturers behind them. BAR will be very hard hit, and will probably by bought up by someone. Jorden is another who won't be able to replace the B & H money easily. Another acqusition candidate?

Last summer, when this thread came up there were literally dozens of good potential sponsors mentioned as possible replacements. Since 9/11, I think many of these will have to be scratched from the list at least for a few years until we see how the world economy shakes down. Airline sponsors???? Forget it!!! Ditto for any travel related industry, unless the customers ride in ox carts. The "high tech" industry is in the can and won't revive until business capital investment picks up. Lean times ahead.

[paulzinho]

If theres no money and less development the FIA could cut costs by drastically reducing the amount of gizmos surely?

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Originally posted by nicholaswhite
BAR will be pretty hard hit. If they can't manage with tobacco money, what will it be like without?

To reprise one of my old themes, I never jumped on the HMS Knock BAR because everyone else does.

They have done a better job than treadwater Jordan. BAR will simply be taken over by Honda.


McLaren have been subjected to severely reduced funds from West in the last couple of seasons. It's more a question of whther Mercedes Benz will stick around.

[Valve Bounce]

First of all Hugh, the three cash cows you mentioned are in dire straits worldwide, make no mistake. PC manufacturers are frantically downsizing, airline companies are going bust, as are telecommunication companies. You can't just plow oodles of sponsorship money into F1 and then start laying off workers or introduce pay cuts. Apart from the very real industrial problems, laying off workers or pay cuts would also cause poor morale in these companies which would affect production. These companies must be seen to be econmising.
One way of beating the tobacco ban is for the TV companies to use virtual tobacco advertising in their broadcasts in countries which do not ban tobacco adverts. With the Computer wizards around these days, this would not be that difficult.
The other way is to decrease the cost of F1 cars and their development. Just ban all on board computers, and the resultant reliance on mechanical development will significantly reduce costs as well as enhance F1. The cars can be just as fast, more difficult to drive, and the more skillful drivers will show their superiority, and any mistake in braking and changing gears will result in an overtaking opportunity for the following car.
As it is, some computer related functions like ABS, active suspension, starting grid sensors have alrady been banned, so why not go that extra step?

[Ray Bell]

It's almost a sin to admit this, but I approve some usage of on-board computers. Things like engine management and rev limiters have been a real boon to reliability. Reliability in turn gives good racing, fuller fields at the end of races, more dicing.

The problem areas are traction control, ABS and automatic gearboxes. Unfortunately there is a potential link between engine management and traction control...

Bringing back gearlevers and mechanical clutches will save hundreds of thousands per car, I'm sure, however. Laying off a few computer whizzes would save a bit more.

As for the virtual advertising of fags for third world countries, I think my conscience would reel at the thought of encouraging these people to endanger their lives and livelihood... give that a miss...

[srinimax]

well both tobacco and tech are down at the moment so yes i would definitely expect a downturn in sponsorship. and i guess most of the major teams will be badly hit.

[Stephen Green]

Ok, Ferarri have already replaced Marlboro with Vodaphone, I believe that starts next year or the year after. Virtual advertising is already happening in F1. If you watch the race on ITV from time to time you will see what look like lime green banners attached to walls or armco. Those are what the TV companies use to project different sponsorship in different countries and so those countries that do not have a tobacco ban, are able to see Marlboro or whoever.

This whole question of banning tobacco sponsorship within EC countries has I believe more to do with protecting their own tobacco industries than stopping people from smoking! (I won't point any fingers but the main culprit is the continental country closest to us!)

[Super Tourer]

I have posted elsewhere on the forum on this topic. I think the situation could turn out to be more serious than we think. On the UK news today, one of the leading city advisors preodicts the worse global recession since the second world war, which will make the 80's crash like a tea party...and look how amny 'big' names barely scrapped through that.

Also remember that back in the mid-80's Renault was forced to leave F1 directly as a result of union pressure in their factories which threatened to being the company to a standstill.

[Stephen Green]

I agree with you, I have said in other forums that I believe this recession will last for about 5 years. The only saving grace for many of us is the global trend to low interest rates and so the burdens placed upon the housing markets will not be so marked.

[RWC]

Less money can only be a good thing in f1.!!!!!!!!!!Less politics(of all kinds)Less filthy rich hangers on.A massively better image-i talk with non f1 friends quite abit about other sports fan's attitude to it-the general feeling is of stupid injustice and gutter politics(why,if ALL other sports do without fag money do the stupid car people think they deserve it?)The big problem is the transition 'till things stabilize again at a lower level of input.As Paul Stodard said'If ferrari are faster still next year ,relative to the rest,quite a few teams may not qualify'.We COULD lose some teams in the mid term-i hope not

[BBKing]

Less money should normaly mean closer racing but Knowing how the top teams (specially Ferrari) can put soo much money into it is unlikely that it would ever happen.

[Stephen Green]

You are right BBK, less money will only werve to widen the gap between the have's and have not's of Formula 1

[EERO]

The whole point of BAT setting up BAR was that they would continue to be represented AFTER the ban took place because the tewam name would allude to the Corporate funding without being a direct sponsorship and therefore not illegal.

"But, your Honour, British Amaerican Racing is NOT advertising for BAT!"

[Stephen Green]

Yes I understand that Eero but it doesn't stop the persistant rumours that BAT would pull out of BAR tomorrow if someone came up with the right amount of money. BAT themselves are cutting back on overheads at the moment, and with BAR running wildly over budgets it must be a thorn in the side for BAT right now.

[Crash and Burn]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
By the way 'Crash and Burn' are you an insomniac or do you also have young kids who don't understand about the hour change!

No to kids - but do find best time to update sites and talk to your contacts that are in different countries - kills your day at work as you spend most of it trying to stay awake....

[paulzinho]

Are vodaphone replacing Marlboro at Ferrari or are they just a second big sponsor in place of tic tac, TIM and fed ex?

[Hugh Jarce]

Originally posted by Crash and Burn


No to kids - but do find best time to update sites and talk to your contacts that are in different countries - kills your day at work as you spend most of it trying to stay awake....

Mmmm - I know that one all to well. My advice is bomb our at lunchtime for a kip in the car!

Just make sure you take the mobile with alarm set or else you may never make it back!