Another "new" Porsche series

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by racer69

My take as an outsider;

- Seeing as the series seems to be open to any Porsche's, and continue's to be so, and can guarentee decent grids at each meeting (i consider decent to be low 20s at a minimum), then this class really isn't a bad idea.

- Is it not a worry that the GT category is so reliant on one manufacturer (and old model cars at that) to seemingly survive..... that really isn't the Porsche drivers problem.

- Seeing as one thing mentioned by the category proponants was that they are only there to please themselves & have fun with their friends without the need to please sponsors or TV, i don't see this as much of a threat to GT in the long haul. Something needs to be done with regards to having a GT Championship as well as a Carrera Cup, its those two that a really in competition.

you seem to have been sucked by the retoric of said Porche owners...

they were not the majority of the GT grid, but doing a mid-season exit will have a de-stabilising effect on *any* championship, and this I guess, was part of the calculation.

Personally, without the newer cars falling out of carrera cup, I very much doubt you could get to a 20 car grid as a single marque, that asside, the time to be doing this stuff is in the off season, NOT mid season.

speaking to others on this, kit would apear on the outside that all these moves are more about who runs the show rather than what the show is, and if this is the case, then it's only ever going to be to the detriment of the sport for everybody.

[Silver 3]

I will try and keep brief--

Originally Posted by Simon S

this is cleary a pointless exercise, but he's my take on it.
1) you seem to have personal issues with Mr Little and co, I have no idea what these are, and I don't pretend to know the people well enough here to make any kind of judgment on it.
S-3---------------------- mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Simon S
2) Costs, yes, racing does cost money, and if you want to be in the bill with F1/A1/etc then this is going to cost. Now, I have no detail idea of what the ‘management’ costs are here, but based on the entry costs I know about, it’s not hugely out of line with other GT series (in fact it’s somewhat cheaper than most).

S-3 ------------------------- the cost referred to is not the cost of going racing--it is the static cost of entering--competent management should be raising sponsorship to try and soften burden on the competitors--not creating a user pays system that is designed to make the management fatter.


Simon S
3) Too Little?? Too little what? Time on the cct? Trophy’s to go round?, TV interviews of each and every driver? From my (limited) experience of how GT meetings were run, I was actually very impressed at the organization of the weekends, good facilities, well organized, etc. if your going to make comments like too little, how about spelling out exactly what you mean?

S-3--------------------------------------- to little as in value for money. I do not disagree that general presentation was acceptable--it isn't rocket science and it should not cost the equivelent of flying to the moon.


Simon S
4) Burning all those that supported it? – I have no idea what you are on about? Yes I am not 100% with the history, so why not enlighten us with it?
S-3-- your comment tells me you do know--- I am quite happy to make these comments anywhere-including on Television- the GT series was propped up by the CRA ( Porsche owners racing association-owned by the competitors) which was the owner of the CMA of APDC.In due course a situation was contrived that saw the CMA fall into the hands of GT management-- funnily enough the last president of the CRA being one of that group.

Simon S---quoting S-3
”The Porsche competitors carried the financial burden of getting the GT series established only to have that independence usurped into private ownership by the Gt management.”

Simon S--
Clearly there is some history here that needs to be spelt out….
At the end of the day, you need to decide what is important to you, having a championship you can run in that goes to all the best meetings etc, but where your un-likely to be at the sharp end of the grid, or to run in smaller meetings where your older cars do not have t compete with newer ones.

S-3---- you do not seem to get it here--not all Porsches are incapable of being at the front--just the ones that they let race.Competitors have clearly not been influenced by the "best" meetings as they immediately decided not to go to the next one.Your comment about older cars is comical--the same GT management "chose' to let a "bitsa" 1992?? model Honda to run and in the same breath excluded a factory 1998 model with a real history.in the same breath an exception is made to allow non-complying Ferrari 360 GT!

SimonS------This is the same dilemma in just about every country that has racing, you will always have the people wanting to buy the latest cars vs. the people that have older cars (and then can’t compete). No race category can stand still, even formula racing moves on at a pace.

S-3----------Australia is not big enough to exclude potential competitors for what was at the time GT3 effectively a non- existent category(other that an idea!!_)It has proven to be ill-conceived-it has to be changed now.

Simon S-------Now, you can do what other countries have done, where the GT grids have moved on to all GT3/GT4 cars and the ‘older’ cars then go and run in more clubman series (like Britcar or GT Cup in the UK), but to do this you need a LOT of cars with owners willing to put them out, and also some rules that don’t excude either end of the grid.
My take on this is that there are just not enough cars/owners in AUS to do this right now, you don’t have enough GT cars (Even if you use a looser definition of GT outside of GT3), and by the looks of it, there are not enough Porsche’s either (outside of Carrera cup).

S3-------- there are enough Porsche's to create a 'new" series. Not to long ago(after CC was established) Porsche Cup ie APDC averaged 34 cars over the year--- after hiatus in the organisation and individual now involve in Gt management calling the shots the following year the average was 11!! Right now the "new" porsche series management have the opportunity to get everybody on board and can thrive again IF the right decisions with an inclusory approach is taken.

Simon S
To make a championship work, you need something like double the registered competitors than you have grid space for, and some how, I do not see there being 70-80 people out there willing to commit to this, so compromises will have to be made.

S-3-------not sure where you get any experience with any of this--I can assure you it needs 4 times grid capacity on the data base.The cars are there--but the majority are not eligible.

Simon S
Let’s just say, for example, you get this running with all the non-GT3 cars, how long before you will be asking people like Mr Lucas to slow down as he is upsetting your core Porsche runners every meeting?

S-3------ even if your presumption is partially right--not all Porsche owners are interested in slowing anyone down. What has to be said---let the Porsches run with the same freedoms afforded to the Lotus( please Lotus guys --I am only using your "bitsa" as an example of the inconsistency of Gt management that never thought the Lotus could finish on the same lap as the 'thoroughbreds")

Simon S
At the end of the day, in racing stuff does not stand still, you cannot have an old car and expect it to still be competitive, so either you live with that, or you have to start going the historic route of capping cars at an age/specification, at which point, your effectively placing a line in the sand as to how many cars you can have on the grid.

S3------ Old cars --spoken like a true Cams idealogue. Chuck em out-they all have lots of money to go an buy new cars!!!The view of the "have nots" of the "have got's."

Simon S
Last question, how do you plan on dealing with the influx of the ‘newer’ 911’s from carrera cup when they all are replaced with the current spec GT3?

S-3 -------------- from my personal point of view I believe an inclusory approach would create what we all want to see--big grids with a great variety of cars. Either way--there can still be a place for a Porsche series as well--a really successfull series would fill grids and you would need somewhere for others to race.If Cams choose not to look at alternative management for GT I fear that it will continue in ever diminishing circles.

[Simon S]

the more I read of yours (and others) posts on here, the more it seems to be a problem with personalitles etc.

as I said beofre, I do not know the people involved in this anything like well enough to make any judgments on their abilities, all I can go on is how I fond them (at face value).

the meetings I have been to have been well run from what I have seen, and people genuinly seemed to like how it was going - (Maybe I was in the wrong pit garages??).

Watching the Clipsal/A1 races on TV the grids looked decent, the 'action' was all though the field, I am really struggling to square this with your comments?

what this seems to boil down to is you cleary do not get on with somebody for whatever reason, now, it has to be better to either sort it out between yourselves or get an outside arbitor to do it for you (I hate to say it but is this not what CAMS is there for?????)

the longer this goes on, the more damage you are all doing to the sport, at the end of the day, with this level of un-certainly, NOBODY is going to commit money to it, least of all any potential sponsors.

PS. I am no fan of the GT3 dream, but it's there and swimming uphill is never a good idea...

[Simon S]

PPS...

OK, just so we all understand what your getting at, exactly what cars have been excluded for GT grids?

are we talking 993 GT2/RSR's? for example?

the only cars I can see that stand out as missing are the 997 GT3's and the current 2008 GT3 cars, (and we all know why that is....)

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

PPS...

OK, just so we all understand what your getting at, exactly what cars have been excluded for GT grids?

are we talking 993 GT2/RSR's? for example?

the only cars I can see that stand out as missing are the 997 GT3's and the current 2008 GT3 cars, (and we all know why that is....)

The large majority of Sports/Gt car in Australia are not eligible. Amongst them are the Porsche GT 2 of 993 and 996 /997.if you allow something to run and then make rules that make the car unworkable then that diingenuous act is hypocritical to an extreme degree -gets even worse when you are acting as a puppet .While I am at it-- so far the "new' series is doing exactly the same thing-at the moment.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

the more I read of yours (and others) posts on here, the more it seems to be a problem with personalitles etc.

as I said beofre, I do not know the people involved in this anything like well enough to make any judgments on their abilities, all I can go on is how I fond them (at face value).

the meetings I have been to have been well run from what I have seen, and people genuinly seemed to like how it was going - (Maybe I was in the wrong pit garages??).

Watching the Clipsal/A1 races on TV the grids looked decent, the 'action' was all though the field, I am really struggling to square this with your comments?

what this seems to boil down to is you cleary do not get on with somebody for whatever reason, now, it has to be better to either sort it out between yourselves or get an outside arbitor to do it for you (I hate to say it but is this not what CAMS is there for?????)

the longer this goes on, the more damage you are all doing to the sport, at the end of the day, with this level of un-certainly, NOBODY is going to commit money to it, least of all any potential sponsors.

PS. I am no fan of the GT3 dream, but it's there and swimming uphill is never a good idea...

Please do not seek to trivialise my comments--there are many (some even post here) that agree with much of this. I am in contact with very large numbers of competitors and potential competitors virtually on a daily basis and I am attempting to summarize a fairly complicated topic.To easy to glibly pass off as a personality conflict. People involved in the Gt management have transgressed in too many areas,too often to have any respect for them.
Cams are responsible for getting these people ther and keeping them there.It is Cams that is responsible for creating and maintaining the problem.
The problem is solvable--get rid of the existing Gt management and start with a clean sheet of paper -include everyone and work from that point.It has already been proven that it will work.

[Simon S]

OK, my last comment on this,

why was this not sorted out BEFORE the season started? (or left till the end it?)

then at least you would not be messing with peoples plans/budgets/etc. and have the time to do the job properly and inclusivley...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

To easy to glibly pass off as a personality conflict.

However, when for the last 2 years or so you have come on here with a hostile attitude to anything and everything that isnt in line with "your" world, its hard to imagine its anything more than this.

If you had approached this whole issue more subtly, dare I suggest more people would have taken you seriously.

Everyone here on this board wants what is best for GT/Sportscar in Australia. Attacking, labelling, name calling etc has done nothing more than disband and turn off the following of the category. Eg In the case of Simon S, he wont be commenting on this thread (as per last post), this isnt a positive thing.

Originally Posted by Silver 3

The problem is solvable--get rid of the existing Gt management and start with a clean sheet of paper -include everyone and work from that point.It has already been proven that it will work.

Dude, first things first - we need 1 category not 5. Once this is sorted work on the management.

In 'real' GT/Sportscar news, running around Eastern Creek this afternoon was John Teualans Ferrari 360 Challenge. Do we know if the car was sold or John running some fun laps at EC.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Simon S

you seem to have been sucked by the retoric of said Porche owners...

they were not the majority of the GT grid, but doing a mid-season exit will have a de-stabilising effect on *any* championship, and this I guess, was part of the calculation.

Personally, without the newer cars falling out of carrera cup, I very much doubt you could get to a 20 car grid as a single marque, that asside, the time to be doing this stuff is in the off season, NOT mid season.

speaking to others on this, kit would apear on the outside that all these moves are more about who runs the show rather than what the show is, and if this is the case, then it's only ever going to be to the detriment of the sport for everybody.

I've not been sucked in by anyone.

The GT grid was poor from the beginning of the year at Eastern Creek at the A1GP meeting, the grid at the AGP was big, because it is the AGP.

You doubt they could get a 20 car grid from one marque? The Porsche Cup of the 90s in Australia certainly did that, encompassed the lot from all the 911 models, along with the likes of 914s & 916s, 944s, 968s, even (albeit kitted) 935 lookalikes

I've been informed since my post though that turbo'd cars aren't allowed in and it is geared around the 996 Cup Car, certainly a negative mark against from me in this case (from a purely spectative position)

[EfiOz]

So now we have a factional split between Silver and his Turbo's and the Cup Car boys?!?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by EfiOz

So now we have a factional split between Silver and his Turbo's and the Cup Car boys?!?

The "new" series and management are quite separate from what you state are my interests- so there can be no "factional split" in that regard. My comments in this thread on that topic(eligibility) are there for all to see.
Regardless of that particular difference of philosophy I still support the initiative and hard work of those that have put in the time and effort to resurrect thw "Porsche" series and wish them all the best in that regard. sIt also needs to be said that the new management has made every endevour to try and give everyone a hearing-- and that is in marked contrast to what happened in the previous years.
I would also point out that my major interest has been generall Sports/Gt racing and not Porsche only - so it is quite wrong to attempt to paint that negative.
The new Porsche series management did not start out in a Porsche only direction when they went to a national stage-- I can tell you for an absoloute fact that they tried very hard to rationalise what was happening in Gt-- and only in time did the dissatisfaction rise. They were not persuded to this view--the GT management forced that position.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

OK, my last comment on this,

why was this not sorted out BEFORE the season started? (or left till the end it?)

then at least you would not be messing with peoples plans/budgets/etc. and have the time to do the job properly and inclusivley...

Never as simple as that-too many variables and people in the chain.Some do do want to see a change-ever--it is only when the bleeding blind obvious overwhelms them that there is any action.
It is why I would like to see action know--so a course for next year can be set.The incumbents will try and drag everybody else on to the sinking ship to convince them that they are the "only" choice-problem is most already know that that is not the case.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

However, when for the last 2 years or so you have come on here with a hostile attitude to anything and everything that isnt in line with "your" world, its hard to imagine its anything more than this.

If you had approached this whole issue more subtly, dare I suggest more people would have taken you seriously.

Everyone here on this board wants what is best for GT/Sportscar in Australia. Attacking, labelling, name calling etc has done nothing more than disband and turn off the following of the category. Eg In the case of Simon S, he wont be commenting on this thread (as per last post), this isnt a positive thing.




Dude, first things first - we need 1 category not 5. Once this is sorted work on the management.

In 'real' GT/Sportscar news, running around Eastern Creek this afternoon was John Teualans Ferrari 360 Challenge. Do we know if the car was sold or John running some fun laps at EC.

I think you will find that I have attempted to explain to Simon S background etc-- as far as I can recall as politely as possible.
For you DRT-- untill recently you have given blind support to Cams and GT management and refused to see any wrong--history is already showing taht to have been misguided.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

For you DRT-- untill recently you have given blind support to Cams and GT management and refused to see any wrong--history is already showing taht to have been misguided.

Not blind support, I did support the thing and still do but have always been and still am aware of means of improving the product.

What I find amazing is that you call the GT championship a failure after having 2 sub 10 entry lists. Your solution, Intermarque has a 7 car grid with 5 of those already allowed to run in GT. Is this not proof enough that management isnt the biggest problem facing us?

[Sheep Stations]

You're right...there are several problems with GT.But none of them belong on this thread.

Maybe, just maybe, seeing as though this category is off to a pretty fair start, we can discuss issues relevant to GT3CC.

Silver, I for one think some of the eligibility issues you raise are well worth discussing further in an open and pragmatic forum.

Who's for having a guess on grid size at Phillip Island?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

You're right...there are several problems with GT.But none of them belong on this thread.

Maybe, just maybe, seeing as though this category is off to a pretty fair start, we can discuss issues relevant to GT3CC.

Silver, I for one think some of the eligibility issues you raise are well worth discussing further in an open and pragmatic forum.

Who's for having a guess on grid size at Phillip Island?

My last comment on things more appropriate to GTthread(most of above is relevent to both) . Interesting thing is some of the rationalisers of GT that are so quick to condemn what they perceive as my negativity to GT have been quite happy to jump into this thread to be extremely critical of all things about the challenge.The fact is that amongst those that have commented positively on this thread are a large number of Porsche owners who will participate in some form or another.
So as SS has said let's talk about the racing in this series in this thread. the series is au fait accomplis and is all go.Just need to do a little tidying up to really get it jumping.

[Sheep Stations]

Time to talk about racing again with Phillip Island in 2 weeks. Peter Fitzgerald to compete in his 996 Cup Car...great news. A Porsche legend who will show us all a trick or two.

20 plus field with no TBA's. If the driving standard and good-natured competitiveness of Mallala is repeated, should make for great fun, playing and watching.

[Sheep Stations]

Time to talk about racing again with Phillip Island in 2 weeks. Peter Fitzgerald to compete in his 996 Cup Car...great news. A Porsche legend who will show us all a trick or two.

20 plus field with no TBA's. If the driving standard and good-natured competitiveness of Mallala is repeated, should make for great fun, playing and watching.

[B24]

Well if any teams are interested they can run in the Wakefield 300 enduro in November. No politics just straight up racing and its cheap.

I would love to see all GT cars out on track racing each other without any discrimination of any kind at all tracks, just having a great time and entertaining everyone who enjoys watching motorsport. Bit like Intermarque and the Production Sports club racing.

I also dont see a problem with Porsche owners running there cars together for their own little series. At the end of the day it their money and time so 'go for it'.

If people want the dream of a GT Championship in this country, a meeting with all teams and promoters of various series attending the meeting, should be held. Specific subjects can be discussed with a neutral moderator controlling the discussion.
Voting on key subjects should be held.
This may help it may not, but the existing enviroment is not working so something has to be done.

[Sheep Stations]

To the rest of the contributors...I tried to change the tone, but some can't help themselves.

B24, thanks for the mild condescension about our 'little' series and the soap box about a love-in meeting, but the subject has been done to death.

At Phillip Island next week there are 22 confirmed GT3CC competitors, and GT's are advising a field of 25. 47 sports cars in two categories... What more do you want? It would appear both series are humming along nicely.

Now, back to the motor sport...

[Sheep Stations]

The Wakefield 300 sounds fantastic. Where can I get information?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by B24

I also dont see a problem with Porsche owners running there cars together for their own little series. At the end of the day it their money and time so 'go for it'.

If people want the dream of a GT Championship in this country, a meeting with all teams and promoters of various series attending the meeting, should be held. Specific subjects can be discussed with a neutral moderator controlling the discussion.
Voting on key subjects should be held.
This may help it may not, but the existing enviroment is not working so something has to be done.

As SS said-- make the comments over in the GT thread.It has been said repeatedly -the promoters of GT themselves are responsible for it's failings and together with Cams( who have never consulted the most relevent Sports/GT car associations at any stage) so I am not sure how you would expect that to happen now.
Some intersting names on the GT3 Challenge entry list. Who do you see up the front SS. Give me the odds!

[Sheep Stations]

Silver, a tough field of locals with plenty of Phillip Island experience. I'll be tagging on to one of them during practice like a Paparazzi so I get a good look at the place. It's first time at the island for all the Queensland competitors.

Burchartz is in good form and not accustomed to getting beat that often. Trende will be itching to knock him off and can do on his day. Kane Rose can go I've been told and Graeme Cook will be keen to keep the lead in the series...and of course Fitzy won't be content with just circulating. Heard he's on a no-carb diet, weights sessions twice a day, personal trainer every morning and he's watching all his old tapes to get psyched up.

My money is on Princess Burchartz...

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

My money is on Princess Burchartz...

mmmm How much money?

[Sheep Stations]

Happy to share a lottery ticket!

Who is the smart money with then?