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Old 8 Jan 2017, 21:44 (Ref:3701122)   #1676
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You don't need to make ANY team happy, which is exactly what Graham was saying. Stop trying to design a tyre that works with everything. Design the tyre in advance and give it to the teams early, and then it's up to the teams to make it work. That's how other forms of motorsport do it. The only exception to that is the P1 teams getting bespoke tyres for them. Everything else gets given a tyre and told "that's what it is, off you go. There might be a revision later".

People seem to have awful short memories. Ferrari and Bridgestone keeps getting talked about. We've had numerous spec tyres before. Other series have spec tyres. Why is it only an issue with Pirelli?

And why is it these excuses only come out when it's tyres? The ECUs are spec as well aren't they? If McLaren produced an ECU for 2018 and told the teams they all had to run X turbo settings, and then the ECU randomly burst into flames anyway, we'd all be sitting here saying the McLaren ECU needs fixed, rather than making excuses.

I really don't understand why it's ok for the product to be this bad, why it needs to be this bad, why it's ok for this type of product but not others, and why the end users opinions aren't listened to.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 00:17 (Ref:3701142)   #1677
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They are never gonna custom build tyres, so teams might as well as try their best with what they got, seen as there's no tyre war on the horizon

That said I do hope the wet weather tyre is better this season
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 00:23 (Ref:3701143)   #1678
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Goodyear and Bridgestone managed to produce tyres for every car.

I've never really bought the excuse of "well they have to work with everything". This is how it was for a long time in the past, and still is in a lot of series. Michelin do it just fine in sports cars. Funnily enough, the tyres that get complaints the most in sports cars in Europe, and Pirelli in Blancpain, because they're difficult to predict.
When is Goodyear coming back?
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 10:11 (Ref:3701217)   #1679
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You don't need to make ANY team happy, which is exactly what Graham was saying. Stop trying to design a tyre that works with everything. Design the tyre in advance and give it to the teams early, and then it's up to the teams to make it work. That's how other forms of motorsport do it. The only exception to that is the P1 teams getting bespoke tyres for them. Everything else gets given a tyre and told "that's what it is, off you go. There might be a revision later".
We are discussing Formula 1 here, and although what you say may be what we would like to see happen, reality is poles apart from that. Pirelli, or any other supplier that might be given the contract, are instructed by the FIA and FOM on the sorts of characteristics that they want the rubber to possess. They supply to that specification at the start of testing every year, but are then subject to demands from their customers who are really the teams.

So compromises are made to ensure that the rubber is suitable for as many teams as possible, subject always to them retaining as much of the characteristics that the FIA and FOM demand. Pirelli are an international business supplying customers around the globe; it is not in their interest to produce tyres that are cr*p, because that would be bound to reflect on their balance sheet bottom line.

They also have to contend with some customers who appear to go to extraordinary ends to circumvent the working parameters for the tyres, with talk of wheel rims being double skinned to allow air (or whatever magic stuff they blow the tyres up with) to be bled off when the race starts. Then there are the teams that super-heat the hub assemblies so as to increase the tyre pressures for testing purposes, but which then reduce when the cars move off the grid. And I am sure that there are plenty of other wheezes that they use, whilst some of the drivers are doing their best to treat their tyres unkindly by attacking the curbs.

It needs to be appreciated that the FIA and FOM like to micro-manage the tyres; they do so because they believe that the tyres are the element that will provide exciting racing. And only Pirelli seem willing to be micro-managed. Michelin also tendered for the latest contract but they would only supply tyres to fit 18 inch rims, and the FIA and FOM refuse to budge on that subject at the moment.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 14:03 (Ref:3701261)   #1680
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We are discussing F1 here. But as we've regularly compared tyres to other series before, I feel it's important that that continues, as those series prove it can be done and keep everybody happy (Michelin are especially good at this, as are Dunlop). To be blunt, the reason people don't like other series being brought up is because it proves it can be done. The same discussion was had with head protection and people started saying doors are dangerous. Every other series manages it, why can't F1?

The teams are unhappy because the tyres are crap. We say that Pirelli are told to make crap tyres, and it isn't in their interest to make crap tyres. Well, the Blancpain tyres are crap, and they haven't been told to make crap tyres for that. Pirelli aren't the only company that struggle with this either. Continental tyres in IMSA are woeful, and the wet tyres are so poor that a GTLM car beat the Prototypes to the overall win at Petit Le Mans because the Michelin wet was great and the Continental was crap. Continental weren't asked to make a crap tyre, it was crap. Pirelli weren't asked to make crap tyres in Blancpain, they're just crap. Maybe Pirellis F1 tyre is just...crap.

F1 is supposedly the best most advanced sport in the world. But other than NASCARs issues with Goodyear at the diamond cut tracks, I can't think of another series that has had so many issues, and even worse, has taken so long to resolve these issues.

All I'm hearing is excuses, frankly. And given the amount of smart people and money involved in F1, it shouldn't be hard to solve the problem, since every other sport has too. It's everybody's fault except Pirellis. The FIA told them, the teams complained, they get micro managed etc. Well everybody else managed. We keep talking about Bridgestone and Ferrari, whilst pretending not to not remember Bridgestone and everybody.

Sorry if this post sounds harsh - it's just silly reading excuse after excuse on these tyres. If it was any other part, literally any other stock part, the manufacturer would be told to get it sorted.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 15:15 (Ref:3701284)   #1681
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Sorry if this post sounds harsh - it's just silly reading excuse after excuse on these tyres. If it was any other part, literally any other stock part, the manufacturer would be told to get it sorted.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I must assume that, if other tyre manufacturers can make decent tyres for racing, then they don't want to supply F1 under the present rules and/or FOM and the FIA are happy with the current arrangement.

But what we do know is that Michelin didn't want to supply anything less than an 18 inch tyre, and no other manufacturer was prepared to tender. One has to guess that they don't want the hassle of dealing with the F1 teams.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 16:07 (Ref:3701292)   #1682
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over the years i too have gotten tired of hearing the same old reasons why Pirelli do what they do (rather why they must do what they do), but if im being honest, i think it has to be acknowledged that the teams in general did not do a good job with their cars in 2016.

both in terms if development and set ups, and (in what i think is another growing problem) the teams dont seem to have a handle at in race/real time strategy anymore either.

despite having more choice in terms of compounds then ever before, a greater tire allotment then they have had in a long time, and a greater degree in freedom in picking their tires in advance they still struggled to set their cars up and frankly scapegoating the tires was easier then accepting the blame themselves about how rubbish they all did this year (with the exceptions of Merc, FI, and occasionally RB).

even the much maligned wet weather offering yielded some of the best wet drives we have seen in ages and its hardly Pirelli's fault that most of the teams opted to put in 30-40 laps on their wets and then complained about the wets not offering enough grip.

despite the difficulty with their mandate, Pirelli deserved criticism in the past (agree there)...but if we are to look at 2016 objectively its wrong to lay the blame at Pirelli's door step.

the teams need to own their lack of preparation for 2016 imo.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 23:34 (Ref:3701405)   #1683
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We are discussing F1 here. But as we've regularly compared tyres to other series before, I feel it's important that that continues, as those series prove it can be done and keep everybody happy (Michelin are especially good at this, as are Dunlop). To be blunt, the reason people don't like other series being brought up is because it proves it can be done. The same discussion was had with head protection and people started saying doors are dangerous. Every other series manages it, why can't F1?

The teams are unhappy because the tyres are crap. We say that Pirelli are told to make crap tyres, and it isn't in their interest to make crap tyres. Well, the Blancpain tyres are crap, and they haven't been told to make crap tyres for that. Pirelli aren't the only company that struggle with this either. Continental tyres in IMSA are woeful, and the wet tyres are so poor that a GTLM car beat the Prototypes to the overall win at Petit Le Mans because the Michelin wet was great and the Continental was crap. Continental weren't asked to make a crap tyre, it was crap. Pirelli weren't asked to make crap tyres in Blancpain, they're just crap. Maybe Pirellis F1 tyre is just...crap.

F1 is supposedly the best most advanced sport in the world. But other than NASCARs issues with Goodyear at the diamond cut tracks, I can't think of another series that has had so many issues, and even worse, has taken so long to resolve these issues.

All I'm hearing is excuses, frankly. And given the amount of smart people and money involved in F1, it shouldn't be hard to solve the problem, since every other sport has too. It's everybody's fault except Pirellis. The FIA told them, the teams complained, they get micro managed etc. Well everybody else managed. We keep talking about Bridgestone and Ferrari, whilst pretending not to not remember Bridgestone and everybody.

Sorry if this post sounds harsh - it's just silly reading excuse after excuse on these tyres. If it was any other part, literally any other stock part, the manufacturer would be told to get it sorted.
They binned Brembo in IndyCar for consistency issues... its not just tyres..
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 00:05 (Ref:3701411)   #1684
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We are discussing F1 here. But as we've regularly compared tyres to other series before, I feel it's important that that continues, as those series prove it can be done and keep everybody happy (Michelin are especially good at this, as are Dunlop). To be blunt, the reason people don't like other series being brought up is because it proves it can be done. The same discussion was had with head protection and people started saying doors are dangerous. Every other series manages it, why can't F1?

The teams are unhappy because the tyres are crap. We say that Pirelli are told to make crap tyres, and it isn't in their interest to make crap tyres. Well, the Blancpain tyres are crap, and they haven't been told to make crap tyres for that. Pirelli aren't the only company that struggle with this either. Continental tyres in IMSA are woeful, and the wet tyres are so poor that a GTLM car beat the Prototypes to the overall win at Petit Le Mans because the Michelin wet was great and the Continental was crap. Continental weren't asked to make a crap tyre, it was crap. Pirelli weren't asked to make crap tyres in Blancpain, they're just crap. Maybe Pirellis F1 tyre is just...crap.

F1 is supposedly the best most advanced sport in the world. But other than NASCARs issues with Goodyear at the diamond cut tracks, I can't think of another series that has had so many issues, and even worse, has taken so long to resolve these issues.

All I'm hearing is excuses, frankly. And given the amount of smart people and money involved in F1, it shouldn't be hard to solve the problem, since every other sport has too. It's everybody's fault except Pirellis. The FIA told them, the teams complained, they get micro managed etc. Well everybody else managed. We keep talking about Bridgestone and Ferrari, whilst pretending not to not remember Bridgestone and everybody.

Sorry if this post sounds harsh - it's just silly reading excuse after excuse on these tyres. If it was any other part, literally any other stock part, the manufacturer would be told to get it sorted.
Entirely agree with you on all of this.

And:

Why are the Pirelli wet weather tyres unusable then?
They are meant to last a whole wet race, just one small problem, they are just plain unusable, guess the FIA gave them this spec too!

Pirelli are just a bunch of idiots masquerading as a racing tyre supplier in a nice little niche without any competition, and throwing up endless problems!
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 01:02 (Ref:3701425)   #1685
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They binned Brembo in IndyCar for consistency issues... its not just tyres..
http://www.motorsport.com/indycar/ne...n-2017-795921/
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 07:46 (Ref:3701524)   #1686
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They binned Brembo in IndyCar for consistency issues... its not just tyres..
This is further proof. When another spec part has issues, they have to sort it or be dumped. But with Pirelli in F1, it's just excuse after excuse after excuse.

Brembo was also dumped by ORECA as the brake supplier for their P2 car. Despite being homologated with those brakes, the FIA/ACO allowed them to be changed for safety issues.

I have long defended Pirelli, especially in the early years, but it's gone on too long now. Whether it's because Pirelli are incapable of building a decent tyre (evidence of that appears in Blancpain too), or whether it's political, and Pirelli are just agreeing to things they can't stick to, doesn't actually matter. The result is the tyres are crap and nobody seems willing to fix it, like every other series in the world does.
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 15:57 (Ref:3701614)   #1687
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Why are the Pirelli wet weather tyres unusable then?
They are meant to last a whole wet race, just one small problem, they are just plain unusable, guess the FIA gave them this spec too!
we saw a few drives this year that would suggest otherwise and arguably the decisions to start races behind a SC has, imo, more to do with liability (or fear of exposing one self to liability) then it does about the quality of the tires.

has there ever been a wet weather tire, designed for F1, that was meant to last an entire race?

if memory serves there was a time during the tire wars where inters and wets, if ran for long enough, would lose their treads completely effectively becoming slicks and which some drivers then used to their advantage in improving conditions. i guess a tire losing its tread is a design benefit now?

but perhaps the wets are not as great as they used to be, but at the end of the day we have seen what a clever strategy and a driver willing to take a chance can accomplish with them. surely if you think the tires are pants, then the challenge they create is a reason to watch the sport and should be applauded.

so is it really fair to blame the tires for the conservative approach to races that lead to the processional and predictable nature of 2016?
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 18:48 (Ref:3701643)   #1688
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if memory serves there was a time during the tire wars where inters and wets, if ran for long enough, would lose their treads completely effectively becoming slicks and which some drivers then used to their advantage in improving conditions. i guess a tire losing its tread is a design benefit now?
That's a good illustration of the difference between old and new tyres. Both Bridgestone and Michelin had tyres that did that. But when a Pirelli wears down, it eventually just explodes. And then people say the FIA asked them to make it like that and we go round in circles again (we do more circles on that than a Pirelli tyre can do...)
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 20:00 (Ref:3701658)   #1689
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... (we do more circles on that than a Pirelli tyre can do...)
hehe

to be fair though, the problem of randomly exploding tires (some of which may have been down to how the teams were fitting them to the cars) or the more common tires hitting a a very dramatic cliff between one lap to the next was a problem of the past.

i could be wrong but that is not what we were seeing in 2016. to be honest, i dont think any tire manu could have made 2016 a more interesting year and if they produced a more durable tire then that too would have only led to more conformity in tire usage and a more processional season.

but that said Pirelli are saying that their 2017 offering will be more durable (which i read as more predictable).

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ow-degradation

sadly i dont think this will lead to better 'racing' or a more varied approach by the teams.

putting the tires themselves aside, my bigger issues when it comes to tires are things like having to run at least one stint on the mandatory tire, Q3 runners having to start on their qualifying tire, and teams having to choose the number of each compound they have available sometimes months ahead of time.

granted the only solution to that problem is paying Pirelli more money so they can bring every compound in their range to each race and giving the teams a free choice among them.

that wont happen because the teams dont have the money for that (and the ones that do dont want to spend it on tires) which leads me to think the issue isnt necessarily with the tires but more of a budgetary concern...which is in itself a separate problem all together.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 11:21 (Ref:3701786)   #1690
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I think it's ridiculous the tyre compound rules, it would make it more interesting if you could use whatever tyres you like that are available. It certainly adds more to the strategy of racing
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 14:58 (Ref:3701837)   #1691
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I think it's ridiculous the tyre compound rules, it would make it more interesting if you could use whatever tyres you like that are available. It certainly adds more to the strategy of racing
With the plethora of compounds available, I like the idea of choosing whatever tyres you like. However, I doubt that will happen so why not reduce the number of compounds and just keep it simple, one hard compound and one soft compound? Champ Car originally came up with the idea of the option tyre and it's worked well with IndyCar, since the series unification in 2008.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3704746)   #1692
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Pirelli think the new rules will produce processional racing.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127845
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 15:39 (Ref:3704769)   #1693
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chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
fortunately for us it was fairly processional before so maybe we wont notice!
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 17:53 (Ref:3704800)   #1694
bjohnsonsmith
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bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!
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fortunately for us it was fairly processional before so maybe we wont notice!
, that's what I was thinking.
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 17:53 (Ref:3704801)   #1695
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S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
It has every chance to be processional this season, but due to aero rather than tyres
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Old 24 Jan 2017, 18:58 (Ref:3704821)   #1696
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Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
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fortunately for us it was fairly processional before so maybe we wont notice!
Bazinga!

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Old 25 Jan 2017, 16:37 (Ref:3705039)   #1697
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JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
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It has every chance to be processional this season, but due to aero rather than tyres
I have faith that Ross Brawn will sort this out, it will take time of course ..
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Old 29 Jan 2017, 20:54 (Ref:3707586)   #1698
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I have faith that Ross Brawn will sort this out, it will take time of course ..
Given that he is an aerodynamicist and was involved with the OWG (Overtaking Working Group) which got us into the mess we're in, I am sure he is just what F1 needs!


Hope over experience Jeremy?
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Old 29 Jan 2017, 21:24 (Ref:3707598)   #1699
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Ross was part of a committee, this time he is not ..
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Old 30 Jan 2017, 11:34 (Ref:3707758)   #1700
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S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
And he did try to warn the rest of them about the double diffuser
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