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Old 11 Jul 2016, 08:29 (Ref:3658246)   #1
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Backdoor team orders / drive discipline

So Toto doesn't want to leave drivers at home if they are naughty. Fair enough. However, consider:

Lewis is given team orders to let Rosberg pass.
Lewis doesn't do as he's told.
Rosberg is right behind Lewis.
Radio message - "Lewis - Chassis mode 1, engine mode 4."
Lewis is now 10 seconds behind Rosberg.

Discuss.
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 09:00 (Ref:3658248)   #2
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Originally Posted by MagnetON View Post
So Toto doesn't want to leave drivers at home if they are naughty. Fair enough. However, consider:

Lewis is given team orders to let Rosberg pass.
Lewis doesn't do as he's told.
Rosberg is right behind Lewis.
Radio message - "Lewis - Chassis mode 1, engine mode 4."
Lewis is now 10 seconds behind Rosberg.

Discuss.
Currently illegal to tell them what chassis and engine modes used.
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 09:23 (Ref:3658256)   #3
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by MagnetON View Post
So Toto doesn't want to leave drivers at home if they are naughty. Fair enough. However, consider:

Lewis is given team orders to let Rosberg pass.
Lewis doesn't do as he's told.
Rosberg is right behind Lewis.
Radio message - "Lewis - Chassis mode 1, engine mode 4."
Lewis is now 10 seconds behind Rosberg.

Discuss.
The brown stuff would hit the thing that goes round and round and this forum among others would go into warp drive.
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 11:45 (Ref:3658280)   #4
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Currently illegal to tell them what chassis and engine modes used.
Exactly. So that driver then gets a penalty.
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 11:50 (Ref:3658284)   #5
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F J Nedos should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mr Hamilton would work out the sequence of orders, then tell the team to take a long walk off a short plank.
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 11:54 (Ref:3658285)   #6
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Originally Posted by F J Nedos View Post
Mr Hamilton would work out the sequence of orders, then tell the team to take a long walk off a short plank.
However, he doesnt have to act on the instruction, it's the radio transmission that causes the rule breach.
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 12:10 (Ref:3658293)   #7
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F J Nedos should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That would be even more reason to tell them to bugger off.

If he doesn't follow the order, is a penalty applied?
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Old 11 Jul 2016, 12:42 (Ref:3658298)   #8
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Interesting topic for thought experiment!

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Originally Posted by F J Nedos View Post
That would be even more reason to tell them to bugger off.

If he doesn't follow the order, is a penalty applied?
Three points...

1. Who says he has to act upon the information for it to be a violation?

2. Given in this scenario the team torpedoed him on purpose, who would fight for him with the stewards if driver disputes the penalty?

3. Other info could be given from the pit that would require no action by the driver, so even if the driver does nothing it would still be a violation of the rules.

Best case would be a smart driver who continued to radio back... "I am sorry, I didn't hear that last transmission" and hope that carries some weight with the stewards.

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Old 12 Jul 2016, 04:36 (Ref:3658456)   #9
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dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by MagnetON View Post
So Toto doesn't want to leave drivers at home if they are naughty. Fair enough. However, consider:

Lewis is given team orders to let Rosberg pass.
Lewis doesn't do as he's told.
Rosberg is right behind Lewis.
Radio message - "Lewis - Chassis mode 1, engine mode 4."
Lewis is now 10 seconds behind Rosberg.

Discuss.
I like your way of thinking. I understand the radios are not encrypted so how hard is it to hack into a radio frequency?
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Old 12 Jul 2016, 07:20 (Ref:3658478)   #10
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Exactly. So that driver then gets a penalty.
I never even thought of it the way you were meaning. Interesting.

So here's another spanner -

Mercedes: Lewis, change to chassis 1, engine 4.
Lewis: No! I'm not doing that

Is that driver coaching if the driver refuses to follow the orders?
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Old 12 Jul 2016, 09:11 (Ref:3658492)   #11
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
I never even thought of it the way you were meaning. Interesting.

So here's another spanner -

Mercedes: Lewis, change to chassis 1, engine 4.
Lewis: No! I'm not doing that

Is that driver coaching if the driver refuses to follow the orders?
But if he says that he's not going to do that (to avoid a penalty) but does it anyway, who (apart from the team) would know.
Yet another spanner, and a reason why this is all very silly...
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Old 12 Jul 2016, 09:15 (Ref:3658494)   #12
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For a team to deliberately and publicly ruin one of its drivers race, would not be in their own best interests in the medium to long term, even if they could potentially see a short term benefit. They would very quickly create a divisive and toxic atmosphere within the team, which is not in their own best interests.

I would go further, if the driver cried foul because he received such a message without any mechanical problems, then the driver could end up appealing any penalty which might result in the team having to demonstrate exactly what technical issue the dodgy order was in relation to. A driver appealing against his own team - hardly what either party wants or needs?
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Old 12 Jul 2016, 09:57 (Ref:3658498)   #13
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But if he says that he's not going to do that (to avoid a penalty) but does it anyway, who (apart from the team) would know.
Yet another spanner, and a reason why this is all very silly...
I suppose the FIA could get the data from the team. They do that for yellow flag violations to see if there was any change in the driving.

Silly indeed.
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Old 12 Jul 2016, 15:01 (Ref:3658539)   #14
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For a team to deliberately and publicly ruin one of its drivers race, would not be in their own best interests in the medium to long term, even if they could potentially see a short term benefit. They would very quickly create a divisive and toxic atmosphere within the team, which is not in their own best interests....
crashgate being an (extreme) example of exactly this happening.

as for the sending of coded messages...its not just the FIA that would hear it but also everyone else watching the broadcast including any number of other teams (former team members) and journos...whether its a radio transmission or a pitboard im curious to know how 'secret' any code used by a F1 team really is?

but it raises the counter argument...if a driver can keep track of all the 'secret' codes then why cant they keep track of their control settings?

anyways, how much of this was just a mental error on the part of the Merc pitwall? a few races ago they were very clear in saying things like, 'we are sorry Lewis we cant tell you that'.

if they were thinking on their feet they would have responded that way again and im fairly certain NR would have figured out on his own to just shift through 7th because he was already there in his thinking.

and this raises another issue...the people on the pitwall are just parroting information from analysts at the back of the garage or from back at their race centre at their HQs.

if this was Brawn with a stopwatch around his neck talking about an evolving strategy with schumi in real time based on observation and experience then i am all for that type of 'driver coaching'.

the scenarios you guys are talking about is the product of conveying to a driver the data of evolving computer simulations (or that is the trend anyways) and that frankly is boring stuff and im pretty happy that they are trying to limit it now rather then waiting for the video game to come out.
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Old 12 Jul 2016, 15:29 (Ref:3658543)   #15
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Heads rolled because of "crashgate". Careers were, if not ruined, at the very least significantly tarnished. The team was sued. Sponsers pulled out.

The same should / would be the case in the scenario that the OP mentioned. It really would not be a clever way of manipulating a result.
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