LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This may sound weird, but I rather have open tires than open engines. Because tire war is such Rarity nowadays. I mean, of course both would be immensely better, and no stupid chassis restrictions either, but makes FAR it less painful for sure. Of course, I might just be on good mood after seeing the new garages at LM piece

From a sporting perspective, I agree with you, but from a spectating one the lack of engine variety will be a real shame for the ears, seeing as one of my favourite things about sports car racing is closing my eyes at an evening and still being able to know what is in front of me. Admittedly, 90% Nissans in P2 for the last few years, but that was deserved, and made the odd BMW-Judd or HPD rarer.

[Deleted]

Fair enough Rodger.

At least with multi class racing you always have something else to listen to.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

From a sporting perspective, I agree with you, but from a spectating one the lack of engine variety will be a real shame for the ears, seeing as one of my favourite things about sports car racing is closing my eyes at an evening and still being able to know what is in front of me. Admittedly, 90% Nissans in P2 for the last few years, but that was deserved, and made the odd BMW-Judd or HPD rarer.

Couldn't agree more! One of my biggest problems with GA was that all the DP's and a lot of the GTs sounded the same. I long for the days when you would likely hear most different engine configurations in the same race.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Mal

DSC has just tweeted that open tyres will be retained in 2017

I wonder if the FIA/ACO was unable to find a tire company willing to pay their price.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This may sound weird, but I rather have open tires than open engines. Because tire war is such Rarity nowadays. I mean, of course both would be immensely better, and no stupid chassis restrictions either, but makes FAR it less painful for sure. Of course, I might just be on good mood after seeing the new garages at LM piece

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

From a sporting perspective, I agree with you, but from a spectating one the lack of engine variety will be a real shame for the ears, seeing as one of my favourite things about sports car racing is closing my eyes at an evening and still being able to know what is in front of me. Admittedly, 90% Nissans in P2 for the last few years, but that was deserved, and made the odd BMW-Judd or HPD rarer.

I agree with both points.
The sad thing is, we really shouldn't have to lose open tires or open engines. Unfortunately, the people in the business of sports car racing, do not seem to understand who their customers actually are. They seem to think their clients are race teams, or various types of automotive manufacturers or brands. What they don't realize is, it all boils down to the race fans. Without us, there would be no manufacturer participation. without us there would be no sponsorship or TV deals. Even the Amateur gentleman drivers that are the backbone of our sport (especially in LMP2) are race fans with the financial means to participate in the sport.
The truth is, if the product the sport is selling (Cool racing cars and great competition) does not appeal to the customer (we racing fans.) Then the sport will ultimately wither away and die.
Unfortunately, the constant push to make racing "sustainable" is the very thing that is making it less appealing to customers like us.

[Rodger Davies]

You make a very good point in there, one I hadn't considered.

I find it hard to pursue the "but it's not what the fans want" line for P2 any more due to it being aimed at gentlemen drivers. What I had forgotten is that the majority of these gentlemen are fans like you and I with the resources and means to get involved and compete. By eroding interest in the cars involved, there's the potential for long-term damage to that desirability.

I'm not sure that it is a major issue; it's probable that these competitors are living a dream based on a general interest in motorsport or an attraction to whatever the top cars were when they were growing up (and wanting to be Steve McQueen!), but it's an angle I hadn't thought about, so good point.

[Deleted]

I feel ACO doesn't think fans care what they do with LMP2, like P1 (and GTE-PRO) would be the only one people pay attention to and the rest are "filling up the grid".

Anyways. The open tires at least make one further pro con for FIA-ACO P2 (besides the worldwide access + likely no BoP) in constrast to open engines IMSA-NASCAR P2.

[Bob Baldwin]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I feel ACO doesn't think fans care what they do with LMP2, like P1 (and GTE-PRO) would be the only one people pay attention to and the rest are "filling up the grid".

Anyways. The open tires at least make one further pro con for FIA-ACO P2 (besides the worldwide access + likely no BoP) in constrast to open engines IMSA-NASCAR P2.

Can't say I agree with your "FILLING UP THE GRID " comment Like F-1 which I rarely watch any more .. To me the P1 I ad]mire the Speed but the Technology is TOOOO ! far advanced for the AVERAGE fan to Appreciate .

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

To me the P1 I ad]mire the Speed but the Technology is TOOOO ! far advanced for the AVERAGE fan to Appreciate .

Can't agree with that... How ignorant do you think one has to be to qualify as "AVERAGE" fan? How's the tech too advanced for the average fan? Which part of the technology are you talking about? The standard of racing cars (like, traction control, track-adjusted engine mapping, FRIC-like suspension systems, a general self-awareness of the car, the list could go on for~ever)? The energy recuperation? Having to deal with limited fuel? All of it combined? Buy a new car and open its hood, have a look at the manual, these things are just about as complex...

I understand not everybody is a car-techie (I'm not, btw), yet to be a fan in the first place, a certain interest and enthusiasm needs to be living in yourself. Understanding the broad strokes of the tech and its application (e.g. optimizing lap time while conserving fuel by coasting at places) is .. erm .. kinda trivial..

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

To me the P1 I ad]mire the Speed but the Technology is TOOOO ! far advanced for the AVERAGE fan to Appreciate .

That's not true at all.

[Bob Baldwin]

Ephaeton : ALL of it Combined . . I like you stated am NOT a car techie . I have an understanding of Basicly how the systems work in Conjunction with each other . . I suppose I am the kind of guy that likes to have an upfront and close view of the Techie Gadgets . I can't say I have ever talked to to many AVERAGE fans that have had the chance to get that up close and personal views of the aforementioned Tech stuff .

[Ephaeton]

Again, how ignorant can one be and still be considered a fan?
I think there's enough dumbing down in our (western) society nowadays already.
Short attention spans and voyeurism being served, instead of a wake and churning mind.
Sports car racing is a sanctuary of sorts, with a bit of complexity left.

You haven't answered my questions btw. "ALL of it" is as good as no answer at all.
Let's pick out an example, say, adjustable engine mappings.
Please explain to me what about engine mappings is too big for the average fan to grasp, given that many sports cars nowadays have a button to "switch engine modes to sport" and the like.

Thanks in advance.

[Maelochs]

I don't think fans need to understand or even appreciate the incredible tech of a P1 car to understand that they are the most advanced and Fastest sports cars on the planet, and That is the selling point.

People weren't in awe of the Porsche 917 because it was technologically advanced—people were awed by the power and speed.

FIA pushes P1 because of the factories, who fund FIA, essentially, and the cars do appeal to techies and gearheads. But the main appeal isn't the NASA levels of technology—(IMO)—the main appeal is that the LMP1s are the fastest and the Best.

(Same way F1 sells, by the way. It is "The Best" despite no on-track passing, ten-second gaps between cars, and all that. Because it is "The Best" people want to be part of it. IndyCar hase the top six or eight cars within half a second ... but it isn't "The Best" so people watch F1, which is barely a race some days.)

GTE appeals because people relate well to the cars—but as Ephaeton notes, people have to have Some interest to even know what a Ferrari and a Porsche are—and few people who are going to bother to watch a race don't.

To FIA P2 and GTE-Am are not just grid-fillers, they are wallet-stuffers, providing the FIA with more cash as well as a bigger grid.

And frankly, I think FIA has that right. Most semi-tech, semi-race fans—the kind who will watch a race but wouldn't read (or write) about it later on, don't really know or care what's up with P2.

I don't think Am drivers care about what they drive so long as it is fun. I know in North America a lot of drivers like getting into a PC car because it is a cheap (relatively) ride in a downforce car, an affordable prototype.

Sure, it lacks even basic tech like traction control and ABS, but that even adds to the appeal—it is a basic, straightforward driver's car. Those drivers don't care if it is, in fact, a grid-filler and an ignored and even despised class for the fans—the drivers are out there in the thing getting their daily doses of adrenaline.

Another thing FIA surely knows—there aren't many "casual fans" of six-hour races. People who aren't really into a sport aren't going to spend an entire weekend day watching. FIA doesn't have to gear its show to Joe or Jane Random, because even if they are sports fans, Joe and Jane will wait for the highlights on SportsCenter rather than watch the equivalent of back-to-back football games (or matches) if they aren't already significantly invested in sports car endurance racing.

I really don't think fans have a hard time enjoying LMP1 because the tech is so advanced. I also don't think FIA cares if fans like P2.

And really, that's a sensible approach—give the gentleman drivers a more affordable option, while still having the wide-open, balls-out speed-demon P1s. Everyone wins ...

Except for North American fans, who get generic field-fillers as the top class.

[Bob Baldwin]

Maelochs : Not withstanding the ultimate technology we know and see in P-1 it really is a MFG 's Race exception maybe 1 or 2 Privateer teams ?

As in most all of sportscar racing you have to be able to see the Race within the Race . Do we have to have wheel to wheel competition for the fans to take a better look at Sportscar racing ? NO !! BUT closer racing such as we see in the GT classes would certainly help.

Some have asked WHY NO P-1's here in North America ? I will leave that to OTHERS to answer .

Your comment that F-1 sells because it is the best does have a lot of merit . However as seen in the past few years many fans are staying away I believe because they feel that what we are left with Maybe 4-5 teams ? have much of a chance to get to the top step on the podium .Pretty much now a GLORIFIED PARADE .

I am really NOT trying to be NEGATIVE here but your comments about PC class has SOME valid points YET at SEBRING recently which I do consider to be a major Venue I believe there were only 7 ? PC cars in the field . WHY not more popular with the AM drivers ? I suppose Affordable Prototype is a matter of conjecture . That is one of the reasons I think I am drawn towards the LMP-3 cars .

Generic Field Fillers ? I guess you are referring to the DP cars ? Yes I see both sides of the Argument . But the POWERS that be AT THE TIME when the WAR was going on ELECTED to go that route . Are they here to stay ? I really DON't see them going away in the NEAR future . They may be talking about HOW LOVEY DOVEY they are with ACO / FIA but it is basicly High school Teen age talk .

Certainly 20`6 will be an interesting year when the GT3's come on board . I for one because of it would HOPE it increases the attendence at Sportscar events .

[Mike E]

Does this link work? It's the BR01 actually moving.

https://fbcdn-video-g-a.akamaihd.net...c90432cbec41f9

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Does this link work? It's the BR01 actually moving.

https://fbcdn-video-g-a.akamaihd.net...c90432cbec41f9

Works for me and it's undeniably a car moving.

Genuinely delighted this car has made the track - it's been a while coming and there were times I thought it would go the way of all flesh (especially when sanctions started to bite) so really pleased wheels are turning.

[Pontlieue]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Does this link work? It's the BR01 actually moving.

https://fbcdn-video-g-a.akamaihd.net...c90432cbec41f9

Works for me. Great to see the car run. Let's enjoy all this variety in LMP2 while we have it.

[J Jay]

Good to see variety while it is still somewhat appreciated by the ACO.

[TF110]

It does have some resemblance to the Dome. Looks great.

[Giba]

Looking forward to seeing the BR01 at Silverstone and seeing how the car develops over the ELMS season will be fascinating to see

[Coach Ep]

Has it passed the crash test yet?

[Mal]

Interesting tweet from DSC:

Watch this space on LMP2 - methinks change may be afoot

Hopefully means they have seen sense over the regs?

[blankfile]

So there is a chance? I sure hope so

[Coach Ep]

Or could it be that the ACO is 'reinstating' P1 Light for non hybrids built by small constructors that are being outlawed from P2?

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I don't think fans need to understand or even appreciate the incredible tech of a P1 car to understand that they are the most advanced and Fastest sports cars on the planet, and That is the selling point.

People weren't in awe of the Porsche 917 because it was technologically advanced—people were awed by the power and speed.

FIA pushes P1 because of the factories, who fund FIA, essentially, and the cars do appeal to techies and gearheads. But the main appeal isn't the NASA levels of technology—(IMO)—the main appeal is that the LMP1s are the fastest and the Best.

(Same way F1 sells, by the way. It is "The Best" despite no on-track passing, ten-second gaps between cars, and all that. Because it is "The Best" people want to be part of it. IndyCar hase the top six or eight cars within half a second ... but it isn't "The Best" so people watch F1, which is barely a race some days.)

GTE appeals because people relate well to the cars—but as Ephaeton notes, people have to have Some interest to even know what a Ferrari and a Porsche are—and few people who are going to bother to watch a race don't.

To FIA P2 and GTE-Am are not just grid-fillers, they are wallet-stuffers, providing the FIA with more cash as well as a bigger grid.

And frankly, I think FIA has that right. Most semi-tech, semi-race fans—the kind who will watch a race but wouldn't read (or write) about it later on, don't really know or care what's up with P2.

I don't think Am drivers care about what they drive so long as it is fun. I know in North America a lot of drivers like getting into a PC car because it is a cheap (relatively) ride in a downforce car, an affordable prototype.

Sure, it lacks even basic tech like traction control and ABS, but that even adds to the appeal—it is a basic, straightforward driver's car. Those drivers don't care if it is, in fact, a grid-filler and an ignored and even despised class for the fans—the drivers are out there in the thing getting their daily doses of adrenaline.

Another thing FIA surely knows—there aren't many "casual fans" of six-hour races. People who aren't really into a sport aren't going to spend an entire weekend day watching. FIA doesn't have to gear its show to Joe or Jane Random, because even if they are sports fans, Joe and Jane will wait for the highlights on SportsCenter rather than watch the equivalent of back-to-back football games (or matches) if they aren't already significantly invested in sports car endurance racing.

I really don't think fans have a hard time enjoying LMP1 because the tech is so advanced. I also don't think FIA cares if fans like P2.

And really, that's a sensible approach—give the gentleman drivers a more affordable option, while still having the wide-open, balls-out speed-demon P1s. Everyone wins ...

Except for North American fans, who get generic field-fillers as the top class.

That's the BIG problem.

Plus it's downright strange that the overall winners for p2 in the states will end up being privateers and not manufacturers. I'd be happy if we could get p1 at Daytona, Sebring and Petit. Hell, if they came to only one of those, maybe even rotate it that would be AWESOME.

I find it hard to believe that they couldn't entice the big p1 teams to compete at those events (or at least the first two). I'm not sure what is keeping that sort of arrangement from happening. I mean..I get it. P1 in Tudor for the season just does not have the cars for it, but not one race? Not Sebring or Daytona?