Has anyone ever fluked a WDC?

Yoong Montoya · 26 Oct 2002, 19:38 (Ref:414147)

I can't think of anyone who has. I don't think you can win a WDC on luck alone, even if your name is Michael Schumacher.

ASCII Man · 26 Oct 2002, 19:57 (Ref:414162)

Erm,... I think i know one, Senna wins the 1988 championship with a gap of 11 points to championship leader Prost

EERO · 26 Oct 2002, 20:52 (Ref:414217)

There have been several ocaissions when luck has factored into it more than others, but anyone who won a WDC did so because he was in the hunt throughout the season.

In 1961, Phil Hill clincehed the WDC after hiss teammate, von Trips, was killed at monza. It was considered m likle that the German would have taken it.

In 1968, I think we can assume the Clark would have been WDC had he survived his crash rather than his teammate Graham Hill, a man Clark usually had the measure of.

In 1976, James Hunt probably remained in the ...errr...hunt...because of Lauda's grievous injuries at the Nurburgring caused him to miss sevreal races despite an early lead in the Championship. Lauda's refusal to race in horrendous conditions at Fuji sealed the WDC for the Briton.

In 1982, the Ferrari's were clearly the class of the field. The death of Villeneuve and the career ending injuries suffered by Pironi enabled Roseberg, who won only one race, to take the title.

As I said, no one took it on luck alone, but it helped.

Number Juan · 26 Oct 2002, 22:15 (Ref:414247)

i was gonna say EERO, i thought Keke fluked a title, but then again; he was one of the great drivers...

IMO, Schumi fluked 94' he was lucky that things went his way and DH didn't protest. it really could have gone either way. other than that, i can't think of anyone other than those championsips that reallly fluked it.

Total-F1 · 26 Oct 2002, 22:54 (Ref:414266)

Hill was pretty much told to let it go, what with all that had happened in 1994.

Jordi · 26 Oct 2002, 23:39 (Ref:414294)

1982 was the most strange year indeed... 11 race winners, almost anyone could have won that title... Lauda, Prost, Pironi, Watson and Arnoux all won more races than Rosberg...

Didn't Keke won it with 42 points? That's very little... but I guess he was the most lucky and the most consistent.

Lee Janotta · 27 Oct 2002, 00:06 (Ref:414302)

1982 is the ultimate example... Gilles would have won that championship easily, and once he was gone Pironi was probably going to win it. Fortunatly, karma caught up with him.

'94, I think that's one... If Senna'd survived, he would have beaten the German to the championship, no doubt. And unlike Damon, Senna would have raised hell as soon as he had evidence Benneton were cheating.

ASCII Man · 27 Oct 2002, 00:09 (Ref:414304)

If, if, if... 'F1' is 'if' spelled backwards...

(i think i have heard that before...)

Lee Janotta · 27 Oct 2002, 00:31 (Ref:414312)

Uhm... Dude, this thread is speculative by nature. If you ask if anyone's ever fluked a WDC, you instantly have to ask, what were the circumstances that allowed them to?

Remember, Senna was leading when he crashed.

ASCII Man · 27 Oct 2002, 00:35 (Ref:414313)

Sorry, i heard Murray say that a long time ago... (think it was the '87 Monaco GP that my dad taped)
thought that would be a good time to mention it...

But i do think Senna would have kicked that germans ass if he survived the crash...

Liz · 27 Oct 2002, 01:33 (Ref:414344)

There was a championship that Prost won by a fluke because Mansell and Piquet took each other off. I forget what year that was. And Lauda won over Prost by 1/2 point once because a race was red-flagged at Prost's insistence . So that one was one that was LOST by a fluke.

f1manoz · 27 Oct 2002, 01:43 (Ref:414350)

1956 - Fangio only won after Collins graciously handed over his car.

1961 - Phil Hill only won after the tragic death of 'Taffy' von Trips.

1976 - Hunt only won it after Lauda's accident.

1982 - Pironi had it won until his accident. So did Watson, who also blew any chance he had.

Wrex · 27 Oct 2002, 05:02 (Ref:414421)

Many championships have been won and lost where luck constributed to a result. But I agree with EERO, none were won on luck alone.

greg.n · 27 Oct 2002, 08:12 (Ref:414496)

86 was the year that Frank allowed Mansell and Piquet to race each other and it cost williams the championship, but piquet won it the following year. Prost still drove a great year with the TAG turbo and had to be in there to capitalise on the others misfortune.

greg.n · 27 Oct 2002, 08:15 (Ref:414499)

Liz, 84 was lost by half a point by Prost to Lauda. The great argument was that Prost was being caught by Senna and Bellof and that if the race had continued he'd have had both them pass him, in which case he'd have lost the championship by MORE than half a point.

Mr V · 27 Oct 2002, 09:01 (Ref:414525)

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Gilles would have won that championship easily, and once he was gone Pironi was probably going to win it. Fortunatly, karma caught up with him.

Lee, i think this is a bit unfair. What Pironi did at Imola wasn't right, and yes, it proberbly contributed to Gilles death at Zolder, but i'm sure, had he known what effect his actions were to have, then i'm sure that he would have done something different. To then go on and say that Fortunatly, karma caught up with him.
makes it sound like he deserved what happened to him at Hockenheim. No driver, imo deserves that.

Armco Bender · 27 Oct 2002, 10:39 (Ref:414598)

Quote:

1976 - Hunt only won it after Lauda's accident.

You need to read up on the 1976 WDC,Hunt was driving a car in its 4th season of racing,with less power than the Ferrai and he won 6 races(and had his Britsh GP win taken off him).Lauda also had the better No2 driver to help him,his accident was unfortunate but it was a racing accident.Don't forget it wasn't a 2 horse race at least 4 other teams won races too,something that doesnt happen today.It still rates as one of,if not the most dramatic WDC ever.It sure wasn't no fluke for JH.

BootsOntheSide · 27 Oct 2002, 12:54 (Ref:414655)

What about 1967? Denny Hulme and Jack Brabham with the Brabham Repco which was the class of the field? Brabham had the newer hardware, his protege Hulme had the older stuff, but the new one kept breaking down more often, so Denny pinched it.

hunttheshunt · 27 Oct 2002, 15:33 (Ref:414738)

I disagree about '94-

At the time of Senna's death, Schumacher had already proved that he could compete with Senna-see Brazil, when he was just outqualified by the Brazilian but overtook him in the pits and had comfotable lead when Senna spun out.

After Imola, he was '30-0' up. Just because Senna perished does not mean he would have won the championship; the Williams FW16 was a difficult car, certainly not one Senna was comfortable with like Michael was with the nimble B194.

Also, relating to the Hill incident-Micheal gained all his 92 points from just 12 races (dq'd from GB, Spa, Banned from Italy, Portugal), Hill got his 91 from all 16. If anything, DH was lucky to still be in the championship as Micheal was punished by an overrecation by the Fia following the tragic events of Imola.

Im not trying to play devil's advocate, all i'm saying is just becuase he won the title doesn't mean Schumacher 'lucked it'-he fully deserved it-he was the consistently quickest driver, even before Senna's fatal crash.

Liz · 27 Oct 2002, 16:07 (Ref:414770)

Interesting point about the Prost/Lauda championship; however, I don't think Prost would have lost that race even if he thought at the time he would have.

Since I have nothing nice to say about Pironi, I will say nothing.

Lee Janotta · 27 Oct 2002, 16:44 (Ref:414791)

Quote:

Originally posted by hunttheshunt
I disagree about '94-

At the time of Senna's death, Schumacher had already proved that he could compete with Senna-see Brazil, when he was just outqualified by the Brazilian but overtook him in the pits and had comfotable lead when Senna spun out.

After Imola, he was '30-0' up. Just because Senna perished does not mean he would have won the championship; the Williams FW16 was a difficult car, certainly not one Senna was comfortable with like Michael was with the nimble B194.

Also, relating to the Hill incident-Micheal gained all his 92 points from just 12 races (dq'd from GB, Spa, Banned from Italy, Portugal), Hill got his 91 from all 16. If anything, DH was lucky to still be in the championship as Micheal was punished by an overrecation by the Fia following the tragic events of Imola.

Im not trying to play devil's advocate, all i'm saying is just becuase he won the title doesn't mean Schumacher 'lucked it'-he fully deserved it-he was the consistently quickest driver, even before Senna's fatal crash.

Senna would have protested a _lot_ more loudly about the illegal launch and traction control on Schumacher's Bennetton when it was discovered...

Just the fact they _were_ cheating so blatantly justifies my position that he didn't deserve that championship.

Honestly, I believe Schumacher's a very good driver, and deserves some of this championships. It's a shame he decided he needed to resort to cheating and, eventually, driving into his opponents, as it's permanently tainted his obvious talent.

Armco Bender · 27 Oct 2002, 17:45 (Ref:414827)

Quote:

so Denny pinched it.

Denny Hulme was a racers racer,he just squeaked in but it wasn't no fluke.If this thread was being held in a pub there would be one hell of a fight started by now

.I think you can fluke a race but you can't fluke a 16 race championship.Every WDC has won it fair and square depending on the circumstances at the time.

Shoe-maker · 27 Oct 2002, 18:56 (Ref:414873)

You can't fluke a World Championship. Any driver who is in with a chance of a WDC has to stick at it because you never know what will happen(eg Prost in Adelaide 1986). The argument about Schumi fluking it in 1994 is a nonsense. Senna may have won that title but we'll never know. When Senna died, Schumi was clear favourite but he still had to win the thing. There were still 13 races left in the season and Schumi had to do the job across those races.

AllonFS · 28 Oct 2002, 11:27 (Ref:415360)

Another possible is Mike Hawthorn in 1958. He won 1 race to Stirling Moss' 4, but won the WDC by just 1 point.

Worth remembering also for Moss' part in Hawthorn's win.

Taken from: http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/moss_bio.htm

"A telling example that shows the measure of this man (Moss)happened in 1958 at the Grand Prix of Portugal. During the race Mike Hawthorn spun his car but was able to continue and eventually finished second. Which when added to his fastest lap gave him 7 points to Moss' 8 for the win. Hawthorn though, was accused by the officials of breaking the rules by restarting in the opposite direction. Moss who witnessed the incident came to his rival's defense and a relieved Hawthorn was able to keep his 7 points. Moss would eventually lose the championship to his rival by one point even though he bested his fellow countryman in race wins 4 to 1."

It makes one ponder what any of the current racers would do today in similar circumstances.

Mattracer · 28 Oct 2002, 23:53 (Ref:415990)

I agree with you Lee Janotta, Schumacher is an obviously gifeted driver but his career has been tarnished to some extent by various episodes of bad sportsmanship and an ugly persona when under great pressure (Adelaide'94) That said, his battles with Hakkinen were terrific as they were both driven men to win. As for flukey WDC wins, Rosberg's in 1982 would have to be a little unconvincing and Prost's handy pick-up-the-pieces approach garnered him the '86 title when Mansell and Piquet let it slip through their fingers. That's part of motor racing I suppose, you have to be there when it's pay day. In '94, Senna was struggling with that particular model Williams, and it is doubtful he would have won that WDC in '94. So many ifs and maybes but the next year's car was better and would have run Schumacher very close.

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