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Old 14 Jan 2005, 00:07 (Ref:1200388)   #1
Purist
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Le Mans Pit/Car Capacity

This was sparked by some talk in another forum I am a member of, but it got me thinking, should Le Mans be open to more than the current 55 (or 60?) car limit? Personally, I think it should be, and think 80-100 cars on a track of that length would be quite reasonable, besides allowing that many more cars and teams to participate.

Here is where it gets interesting. Preceeding the pits, there is the Ford Chicane. Following the pits, there are buildings in the infield, the Dunlop Bridge, the Dunlop Chicane and Curves, and the Le Mans Bugatti Circuit cut-off. So, what would you do to allow for an expanded pit road, and while you're at it, what changes to the 24 Hour circuit do you think should be made?
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 00:17 (Ref:1200397)   #2
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think there is room for 50. They built two extra temporary garages one year I think for something.
From what I gather, traffic is an issue as it is. I was watching my Le Mans 2004 DVD that I got for Xmas, and apparently the closing speed of the prototypes on the GT class cars is around 100mph going into the Dunlop Chicane, as the prototypes arrive at a higher speed, as well as being able to hold on a hell of a lot longer into the long right before hitting the brakes for the chicane.
As for changes to the circuit, I'd make none. Not even remove the mulsannes chicanes. I actually quite like them. By chicane standards they're fast, 3rd gear I think, which is perhaps 4th or even 5th in an F1 car. And when you think of the problems associated with Mulsanne's corner for instance. The 'escape' road there leads to a roundabout on a public road. And there's next to no run-off.
I can sort of see why there are two chicanes and not one. The obvious place to put a chicane is at the second chicane location. But the problem then is you can't create proper run-off for those either, so still having a 240mph run into a tricky chicane, especially at night and with the huge difference in speeds, the need for having another chicane to further split the straight, becomes apparent.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 01:32 (Ref:1200449)   #3
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The prototypes probably come off the Ford Chicane a good piece faster to begin with.

For the length of the circuit (8.625-miles), 60 cars isn't that many. They have had 70-80+ at Daytona and Sebring.

As for issues with run-off, tire barriers backed by catch fencing work very well to absorb the impact and protect both the drivers and spectators.

Why did they put in the Dunlop Chicane in the first place, with the Ford Chicane, that flat-out run is relatively short, and they used to be able to pass in the Esses. Now, approach speeds are too slow to have much of that, and with those extra curvs it's not a straight shot in anymore. Also, the proper racing line into the Dunlop Chicane doesn't really allow for much competitve passing there either.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 07:46 (Ref:1200607)   #4
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Yes, but its an endurance race, you rarely get two cars in the same place, and if you do there are 4 very long straights to pass on
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 09:40 (Ref:1200659)   #5
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The circuit is great as it is. As for the pits, i dont really know what could be changed.

Personally, i like the Indianapolis-Arnage combination best on the circuit, but the whole circuit, even the chicanes, is nice. I dont know how F1 would do, and the Bugatti circuit is not that good.

So, what would you change on the Bugatti circuit? I'll post mine later .
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 13:03 (Ref:1200835)   #6
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The bug circuit, now that is worth changing...

I reckon F1 cars would lap in around 3 minutes 10 on the full circuit. That's an average of 163mph (263km/h)

From what Martin Brundle said about LM in his recent book, its nearly impossible to get a clear quali lap in. The traffic spreads out around the track, and he reckoned there'd be maybe only 1 or 2 laps during the entire race of over 370, that you'd get the Mulsannes to yourself. Think of it this way. Prototype: lap of 3 minutes 35 secs roughly. GT Porsche, a lap of 4 minutes 10 secs. At that rate the prototypes lap the GTs every 4 and a bit laps. As soon as they start to string out around the track, you can see that you'll be very soon lapping 2 or 3 cars per lap.
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Old 15 Jan 2005, 03:00 (Ref:1201357)   #7
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I suppose in some ways I didn't clarify enough. There is a demand for grid spots at the 24 which exceeds the number available, which by itself is not necessarily such a bad thing. It effectively guarantees a "full" grid. On the other hand, the circuit is more than capable of handling 80-100 cars without too much congestion, but the pit facilities aren't there to allow that many entrants.

As for the chicanes on the Mulsanne, they may be relatively fast, but how much real passing actually happens in them? Usually, the passes I see on that section actually occur on the straight itself.

A reinforced tire barrier with a wal and catch fencing behind it can absorb quite a bit (a rudimentary tire barrier by itself at Mid-Ohio stopped a Champ Car doing around 150 mph). Besides, if your throttle sticks or your brakes fail at the end of any long straight, you almost certainly will hit something very solid at a very high rate of speed. On a "straight", a high speed impact will generally be a fairly glancing blow rather than a straight-on hit. If you do have brake or throttle control at the end of a straight, you can spin or at least significantly slow the car before reaching anyting substantial, if there is any real run-off to speak of at the corner concerned (Moss Corner at Mosport has little run-off, so a hard hit there or at like corners is more likely).

How much distance is there from the end of the current Mulsanne to the aforemenioned traffic circle?
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Old 15 Jan 2005, 03:25 (Ref:1201360)   #8
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The blue is obviously the Le Mans circuit. Scale is at the bottom.
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Old 15 Jan 2005, 10:53 (Ref:1201488)   #9
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Originally Posted by Purist

Why did they put in the Dunlop Chicane in the first place, with the Ford Chicane, that flat-out run is relatively short, and they used to be able to pass in the Esses. Now, approach speeds are too slow to have much of that, and with those extra curvs it's not a straight shot in anymore. Also, the proper racing line into the Dunlop Chicane doesn't really allow for much competitve passing there either.

As a Le Mans nut since 1986, I ask myself the same question every time another change is made. Fortunately, I saw one race (86) without the chicane at Dunlop. That was an awesome corner leading under the Bridge down to the old Esses. But I guess it was altered because the speeds through the Curve were getting too high.

As for the monstrosity which now precedes the Esses - you'd better not start me on that one........
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Old 16 Jan 2005, 01:11 (Ref:1201925)   #10
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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As for the chicanes on the Mulsanne, they may be relatively fast, but how much real passing actually happens in them? Usually, the passes I see on that section actually occur on the straight itself.
Yes, but this can be said for every scenario where you have a long straight.
Outbraking just doesn't exist anymore in top flight racing, certainly not in F1.
Its all about who reaches the braking zone first. That's why F1 needs such long straights, because they need space to get a tow. If you can pull along side, then you've already made the pass effectively, just providing you can keep it tight on the exit of the corner ahead.

Normally though, its still pretty close by the time they get to the chicane at Le Mans. Usually the second one I've noticed.

More to the point of your question though, I can't see how you're gonna increase the pit capacity without altering the circuit, which as I've already said, I wouldn't want to do.

AFAIK, the Dunlop Chicane was put in because of a few motorcycle accidents (likewise with the new complex preceding the esses). Bloody bikes...
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Old 16 Jan 2005, 09:03 (Ref:1202057)   #11
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AFAIK, the Dunlop Chicane was put in because of a few motorcycle accidents (likewise with the new complex preceding the esses). Bloody bikes...
And they couldn't make it optional!?
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Old 16 Jan 2005, 09:54 (Ref:1202075)   #12
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I'm sure the new Esses section was for the bikes (makes me wanna cry.....) but I think the Dunlop Curve was all about sheer speed and the proximity of the spectators/fairground.
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Old 16 Jan 2005, 10:51 (Ref:1202096)   #13
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Probably... It would have been absolutely flat out. Really awesome I'm sure.
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Old 16 Jan 2005, 22:55 (Ref:1202590)   #14
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It doesn't look like they were short on run-off at the Dullop Curve though. And even if they WERE, they AREN'T now.

The fairgrounds are on the outside of the Esses (to the left of the track for the drivers), so the speed carried into the Esses wouldn't be an issue because of the amusement park.
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Old 16 Jan 2005, 23:14 (Ref:1202611)   #15
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
AFAIK, there was a steel barrier right at the edge of the track with no run-off at all...
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 01:15 (Ref:1202664)   #16
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As I said, there may not have been much in the past, but there certainly is quite a bit of run-off at Dunlop now.

As for the Esses, there isn't a great deal of room, but there would be enough for some tire barriers to soften any blows. It's interesting though, I don't recall there being a high number of accidents in the Esses. I know there were a couple collisions of note there in the 60s, but it hasn't been a particularly notorious section like the old Maison Blanche was.

BTW, what does AFAIK break down into?

Last edited by Purist; 17 Jan 2005 at 01:16.
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 08:32 (Ref:1202776)   #17
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
As Far As I Know. Sorry
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 09:29 (Ref:1202818)   #18
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Hazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHazza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirenzo
AFAIK, the Dunlop Chicane was put in because of a few motorcycle accidents (likewise with the new complex preceding the esses). Bloody bikes...

Pfft. Heh, then again they should be racing at Paul Ricard. But thats neither here nor there.

With the entries for the race, I have a "newb" question: How do they break the alloted spaces up? Is it just as many prototypes as you can get plus the NGT and GTs? Maybe having more spots open, but having to have them qualify for the race like Indy?
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 12:37 (Ref:1202929)   #19
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I'm not quite sure about that. I think you can qualify for a guaranteed entry by doing well in the race the year before, some get special recognition for doing well in other races, but mostly I think its down to the ACO, who decide which teams will give the most varied entry, and also, which of the teams wishing to race are mostly likely to put forward the most serious entry possible. A team which clearly won't finish the race under any circumstance won't get an entry. Its not really the fairest system, and a lot of good teams do get left out.
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 20:57 (Ref:1203241)   #20
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As I think i said earlier, one of the main reasons I brought this up is because of what you just mentioned Pirenzo. There aren't enough potential grid spots (pit stalls) to cover the truly deserving teams.
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 21:24 (Ref:1203271)   #21
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Indeed, but I don't think the idea is entirely to have the 'best' teams in it.
I mean, why the Morgan and TVR's this year? There must have plenty of faster Porsche's to cover the entirety of GT. I think the ACO also try to vary the teams a bit to include alternative fuels, team nationalities, and manufacturers etc. I think that's definitely worth doing, even if 'more deserving' teams get left out.
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Old 17 Jan 2005, 22:05 (Ref:1203302)   #22
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MikeHoyer should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMikeHoyer should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMikeHoyer should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
As I recall there are 24 "invitation" entries. I'm not sure how these are decided precisely, but it's teams like the previous winner etc.

After that the other teams can apply for an entry, usually paying a fee. But I don't know exactly how it's decided.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 17:02 (Ref:1203897)   #23
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who & how

Think its summat like top 3 ( per class) from last year's race plus top 3 from LMES are automatic entries then some ALMS champions ( each class?) .

The rest are ACO invatations

No doubt GG or EDDSC will fill in the details
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 18:24 (Ref:1203965)   #24
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There's a post somewhere in the Le Mans thread on Sportscar/GT which has a link to a site showing the break down of the invited entries. In the last few years there has been considerable displeasure with the manner in which the ACO decide who to invite. Without sounding cynical, it often seems to help if you're French........
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 17:30 (Ref:1205799)   #25
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Yes, it would seem that way, but I don't begrudge the ACO their right to decide who races. It is their race afterall, and who's in the cars doesn't make a jot of difference to the race, really.
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