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Old 19 Apr 2016, 09:12 (Ref:3634747)   #1
BertMk2
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British Rallycross Classes.

With all the discussion about the class structure that keeps on cropping up it's got to be worth it's own thread

So - you're in charge. What class structure would you go for? What format of heats? Joker lap yes or no? Given a blank sheet of paper what would you do?
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Old 19 Apr 2016, 18:27 (Ref:3634924)   #2
chunder
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
As I am often the person who brings up the class structure as an issue let's start with me!

Firstly, none of this is even worth bothering with without amalgamating the two series. That has to be the priority. If there are differences and reasons why this is not happening still, then the people responsible should be charged for bringing the sport into disrepute and got rid of and the slate wiped clean.

After this then let's leave Supercars alone, they are fine.

Modified should in my eyes be split like Formula C and B were. So an up to 1600 class and an over 1600 class. Anything goes in there, same manufacturers engine.

For me I would bring in a miniumum weight to prevent the Exige, Elise cars and try and get a stable platform of BMW, GM, Ford hatches and saloons.

A budget 4wd class, restricted, road tyres, perhaps lightweight panels.

An entry level class, not sure what cc to have, perhaps 1600 so that drivers can move up to Formula C if they want to with the same car, therefore perhaps a budget 1600 and over class to, to encourage similar as there are more large cc cars around these days.

And perhaps in the future some kind of very low cost class like Minicross, SPC, along the lines of folkrace as that works amazingly well in Scandinavia. Harder work though as the cars there are fairly rough and not as safe.

And that would be it.

Keep the joker lap. Its pretty universal now and a lot of fuss is made by a few when there are far bigger issues in British ralycross.

3 heats, finals going A,B,C,D etc etc.

AND BRING BACK THE SUPERFINAL, fastest cars in the finals to qualify.
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Old 19 Apr 2016, 18:51 (Ref:3634936)   #3
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I'm surprised there has not been an avalanche of replies, however here are my thoughts for what they are worth, any class structure should be rolled out through
out the uk , everyone needs to sing from the same song sheet.
1) Super car class ie 4wd/turbo 2) then perhaps another 2 or so classes that are 2wd with an engine capacity split and penalty for turbo's with little or no restriction on anything but the obvious safety needs to allow and encourage driver ability and engineering capability to make up for big budgets, this may sound like the class structure from a generation ago and is deliberate, it worked then and can work now
with todays cars and If put in place for long enough will produce cars that are affordable for new starters, if the class structure keeps changing then nobody will risk building a new car. One make series by their nature become processional and unappealing to spectators. Fewer classes will concentrate what cars there are and increase grid sizes which will in turn will lead to closer racing. less regulation will lead to more heavily modified cars and may lead to a return of the giant killing acts of the past-remember one J Milner's regular appearance's in the super final?
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Old 20 Apr 2016, 17:42 (Ref:3635191)   #4
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Perhaps people can't be bothered anymore. They've seen classes come and gone. And lots didn't work out into 30 car startgrids for a number of consecutive years.
Make a plan that works and cars will come and spectators will come. IMG did it. The up in media exposure is there, there will be more sponsors ready to invest. Now is the time. But I wouldn't try 4 or even more different classes. I'd do 2 and make that work, invest 2 years with 4 people 24/7. That might do the trick. But who would do the initial investment....
And of course use 2 or 3 existing classes to fill the rest of the day, swifts, 2000+ super national..
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Old 20 Apr 2016, 23:20 (Ref:3635266)   #5
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There isn't the avalanche of replies because to sum it up no one can be bothered anymore. Lot's has been said including me over the years about this and joker laps etc, we haven't been listened to and the end result is the dross we have now. Too many people come and go with their own agendas no stability etc. Who would invest serious money building a car to unstable regulations/organisers?
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Old 21 Apr 2016, 09:00 (Ref:3635353)   #6
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
IMG are only doing what is good for them, not for rallycross long term!

And Thunder, spot on mate, too much selfishness and meddling in the past, and this is what you have.

A few enthusiasts who decry those of us that speak out, and a series that is treading water and not backpacking on the success and exposure of WRX
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Old 21 Apr 2016, 10:00 (Ref:3635361)   #7
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IMG are doing very well with the SC's in the long run. They've commited for 5 to 10 years. That championship is successful with lots of drivers and lots of spectators and lots of tv-minutes. You can't deny that. That you aren't willing to call it rallycross as in the Group-B time, 304K people on facebook say you are wrong. Consistent 30+ start grids say you are wrong.
Cutting of the useless parts is just business, lean is the word, more profit, less waste. Yeah they are a company who's into money making.
The amateur version of it i.e. low budget rallycross isn't working. Why do I know that? Well, you b*tch about it in every other of your posts.
The long run.. not much of an argument is it? Future can't be predicted, in 25 years Lydden could be a hilly field of flowers, in 15 years Cooper tires might be out of business why would they sign a 50 year contract? etc etc. 5 year commitments are sufficient to start growth.
IMG are not in the game of rescuing rallycross as a sport on club level, but if those clubs are smart, willing and able to hook up with them, this is their chance, right now (actually 1 year ago would be better).
Bring stability. That's step one. Next step, money.
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Old 21 Apr 2016, 13:03 (Ref:3635396)   #8
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Originally Posted by rallycrossnl View Post
Perhaps people can't be bothered anymore. They've seen classes come and gone. And lots didn't work out into 30 car startgrids for a number of consecutive years.
Make a plan that works and cars will come and spectators will come. IMG did it. The up in media exposure is there, there will be more sponsors ready to invest. Now is the time. But I wouldn't try 4 or even more different classes. I'd do 2 and make that work, invest 2 years with 4 people 24/7. That might do the trick. But who would do the initial investment....
And of course use 2 or 3 existing classes to fill the rest of the day, swifts, 2000+ super national..
What? IMG did no such thing. The regulations for the supercars, touringcars and Super1600 existed for over a decade before IMG was ever in the picture. Even the RX-lites already had a history in GRC before IMG came on board.

But holding on to your argument, the British Organisers have followed the IMG model more strictly than anywhere else. They did get British Rallycross on mainstream TV. They did get major sponsors like Monster to invest. They did focus on the Supercars as centerpoint in promotions to attract interest in rallycross and their meetings. They got a big segment in the most popular tv show in the country (Top Gear). They did all that promotion already, what else is there to do?
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Old 21 Apr 2016, 15:19 (Ref:3635429)   #9
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
British rallycross originally got on tv decades ago because the drivers paid for it! Not through any other reason, not sure now. The vast majority of motorsport is on tv now in some form or another, so fans are swamped with very average coverage, is that really helping? Maybe, I don't know. TV coverage is not the be all and end all believe me I know from experience!

I don't deny any of your points nl, but just simply don't see modern rallycross as the pure form of the sport I watched as a kid and as an adult until a few years ago. It has changed, for you for the better, for me and the sport as a whole far worse. Amateur rallycross works fine in Scandinavia, just not anywhere else.

They have no interest in the sport as a whole, only making money for themselves and are making decisions that are having an impact on the sport worldwide, hence their outlook. If you think that's great, then fair play to you, I wish I could bury my head I the sand that way.

Back on topic, I think following the WRX model nationally is not a great idea, it has merit in some classes but not all. I would guess most national drivers cant compete in WRX on any level either coz of their car or budget.

If they get more races fair enough, that's a good idea, more laps for your fee is great.
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Old 21 Apr 2016, 22:46 (Ref:3635552)   #10
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What? IMG did no such thing. The regulations for the supercars, touringcars and Super1600 existed for over a decade before IMG was ever in the picture. Even the RX-lites already had a history in GRC before IMG came on board.

But holding on to your argument, the British Organisers have followed the IMG model more strictly than anywhere else. They did get British Rallycross on mainstream TV. They did get major sponsors like Monster to invest. They did focus on the Supercars as centerpoint in promotions to attract interest in rallycross and their meetings. They got a big segment in the most popular tv show in the country (Top Gear). They did all that promotion already, what else is there to do?
I wasn't saying that they invented the rules, you make that up. I say they invited the drivers and with them set the regulations for a couple of years so that they all knew what to expect. Totally different thing.
What should they do? Euh, be better at it?
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Old 21 Apr 2016, 23:09 (Ref:3635555)   #11
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British rallycross originally got on tv decades ago because the drivers paid for it! Not through any other reason, not sure now. The vast majority of motorsport is on tv now in some form or another, so fans are swamped with very average coverage, is that really helping? Maybe, I don't know. TV coverage is not the be all and end all believe me I know from experience!

I don't deny any of your points nl, but just simply don't see modern rallycross as the pure form of the sport I watched as a kid and as an adult until a few years ago. It has changed, for you for the better, for me and the sport as a whole far worse. Amateur rallycross works fine in Scandinavia, just not anywhere else.

They have no interest in the sport as a whole, only making money for themselves and are making decisions that are having an impact on the sport worldwide, hence their outlook. If you think that's great, then fair play to you, I wish I could bury my head I the sand that way.

Back on topic, I think following the WRX model nationally is not a great idea, it has merit in some classes but not all. I would guess most national drivers cant compete in WRX on any level either coz of their car or budget.

If they get more races fair enough, that's a good idea, more laps for your fee is great.
It doesn't matter that they don't care about the sport AS YOU SEE IT, they have made it bigger then it was.
Forget IMG, build something up that can take the popularity of their series and use it within the UK. To new potential spectators, a car is a car. Get them hooked, flyer the hell out of each car event in the UK etc etc etc.
Nobody talked about the WRX model, again forget that. I was talking about a business model they use. What did happen the last years in the UK and lots of other countries isn't working. The amateur approach isn't working, we see that day in day out. Somebody has to pay for getting it to a higher level and it sure won't be the 500 pound car drivers. Nore the 20 paying spectators. Neither the 1000 pound a year trackside sponser. Somebody will have to invest time to get the level higher, and that will be a 4 or 5 man job, full time for a couple of years.
Like WJM said, there has been a beginning, but it clearly wasn't enough, else we wouldn't have the same discussion year after year after year.
TV is just a small media outlet now, and limited in use, but it still has it's uses. Start a reality series around 3 drivers etc. Social media bombardment, Live streaming etc etc. make it modern.
The 'pure' form of rallycross doesn't attract enough drivers or spectators, else they would move the MSA back towards that concept (if there ever was one)
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Old 22 Apr 2016, 16:53 (Ref:3635707)   #12
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I suppose it depends what you want for WRX. If you want a totally professional series such as DTM or ITC used to be, that is the model that is being used right now. for about 6 teams!! I would like a series that is truly worldwide, goes to America, Asia, Africa, Southern Europe, the middle east. Not Canada and Argentina coz they are the only ones who are dumb enough to be paying!

But I can gurantee than if someone started a series like ERC, the semi pro and amateur guys would prefer that. Problem is now that IMG probably own the rights, would charge millions for them, and would not want to sell them as right now they can advertise 50 car entries in supercars, 40 races a day, when all they REALLY care about is the ones for the big budget teams that are on tv, NOT the smaller teams.

We are talking about British ralycross here though, and that has its issues, linking with WRX is perhaps bottom of most peoples list of things to bother about in British rallycross to be honest.
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Old 23 Apr 2016, 12:11 (Ref:3635848)   #13
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Supercars are great but reliability is still an issue as it long has been in the British championship. Supernationals or modifieds or whatever you want to call them are good but low on numbers, due mainly I guess to the cost. Seems that if you build a budget modified it make more sense to do the BTRDA championship, so maybe a way to encourage those driver to participate or as other posters have said amalgamate the series!

The other formulas really are quite dull, the point of 1 make formulas is close racing between equally matched cars, that often doesn't seem to be the case with the Suzukis.

Personally I think they should look to what was the biggest success and possibly saviour of rallycross back in the early 2000s, stock hatch. I know it wasn't perfect due to it almost becoming a 1 make formula in itself but surely with regulations that encourage different makes and equlity within the class (im not generally a fan of weight penalties etc but why not in a introductory class?)then surely we get more drivers and hopefully a far more entertaining class with different types of cars competing. Also it should not allow cars from before a certain year, and car appearance and driving sandards should also be heavily monitored.

As for jokers never been a great fan but I do see their purpose at certain tracks and probably causes less first corner carnage in the supercars but I don't think it does the racing any favours in the smaller classes which may be one of the main reasons these classes are not really great to watch.
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Old 23 Apr 2016, 12:32 (Ref:3635849)   #14
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How many different series and classes are there in the UK?
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Old 23 Apr 2016, 12:52 (Ref:3635851)   #15
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
chasing

You hit the nail on the head, amalgamate both championships! It's a fairly simple solution and would pretty much then give British rallycross a decent base to start from. That has to be the starting point, doing anything else as things stand is rather fruitless until this is done.

We need to get over to Ireland again too instead of butting against each other.

I think they BOTH run similar classes, obviously to try and tempt drivers, but to have the two series running separately is ridiculous.

One make series can work, but you need a lot of drivers to make it work. You had that in Nova's. You got domination there too with Ian Evans, Nick Jones, Haffey, but the other racing was good so you tended to forget the lone alien out front! Who can forget some of the great races they put on at the Rallycross GP with guest drivers etc.

And there is another clue to success, guest drivers in one make formulas. Swifts are useless, too expensive, sound and look slow. Not sure why Nova's worked, they just did.

Not sure why the Supercars are so unreliable,. I would guess its because they are run by journeyman drivers are kids who are stretched financially, and unless you have been running them for years you might not know what to look for and what signs there are.
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Old 26 Apr 2016, 07:09 (Ref:3636409)   #16
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Hickey should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For me, the key to classes is to ensure more than one race per class in the heats. Without that, the final is a non-entity as you've watched the same race three times. So, with that in mind, lump all 1600 cars together (excluding S1600). Some of those hot hatch are so bent they can compete with swifts but could open regulations a bit there (like Supernational- category in Belgium). That should give around 30 cars. Then super1600 and supermods can go together and am sure would compete. Supercars stays the same, RX150 (which seems to be in decline sadly, as it was good when there were 12 entries or so). Then juniors. For me, retros should just be put with the normal classes. I'd love to see the Beetle, Porsche, Morgan and Forster up again the modern modified cars. And the smaller slower cars can go in Supernational-. Should give 5 classes, 3 of which very well supported and should attract more BTRDA drivers.
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Old 6 May 2016, 22:27 (Ref:3639302)   #17
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There are too many classes, not enough cars, too many cars based on old and outdated models. I think there should be 3 classes only:

One class for Juniors.

One "middle class" - affordable national level. This should be some kind of production class.

One Class for supercars - Do away with the current unreliable and massively expensive white elephants. The cars need to be made more affordable and somehow more mechanically reliable and more current models than the current crop. If this means slower than current supercars, then so be it.
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Old 7 May 2016, 16:36 (Ref:3639695)   #18
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You plan for supernational is not very well researched. Exiges are heavier than the lightweight fwd drive cars in the class so a minimum weight would only give the lotus cars a greater advantage. I know this as i owned both (until very recently) im not just guessing
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Old 12 May 2016, 10:26 (Ref:3641088)   #19
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British rallycross has got to go back to its strengths - a clubman-based, relatively cheap form of motorsport that anyone can take part in.

No silly age limits for cars, no complicated class structure, no politics between the championship organisers, no boring one-make series, no big time charleys pretending they are better than they are (if you were you would be in the WRC), no bullshit.

Divide the classes simply between stock 2wd, modified 2wd, 4wd - and let any MSA legal car run.

And don't take it too seriously.
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Old 12 May 2016, 11:24 (Ref:3641106)   #20
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Grats leo

Pretty much the best idea all round.

Covers all bases
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