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Old 21 Oct 2009, 12:06 (Ref:2566214)   #1
big andy
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big andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbig andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
the fastest 850/1000/1300/over special saloons

the fasest special saloons on lap times not race wins
these are my thoughts top 3 in each class

upto 850cc. reg ward mini/imp .peter day 2cyl bda.david enderby 8portmini

850/1000 . ben barlby suzuki sc100 .ginger marshall kitten imp.john homewood imp

1000/1300 .david enderby vw ghia .bill sollis KAD mini. peter baldwin bda.

and over tony ellis5.3 astin martin. tony sugden 130rs skoda. mick hill 5.0 beetle
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 13:30 (Ref:2566304)   #2
paulSenna
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Gerry in Baby Bertha should be in the over 1300cc class I reckon... and how about Nick Whiting's 3.4 Escort, Alec Poole's 2.0 Skoda, Jonathan Buncombe's 2.0 Chimp and Iain Richardson's 8.1 Chevrolet Corvair.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 13:50 (Ref:2566321)   #3
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big andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbig andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
baby bertha was at her peak of development in 76 when it was the fastest legal s/saloon of them all but the aston and the skoda were of much later vintage some 10years and were a good few seconds a lap quicker on the results i have
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 10:05 (Ref:2566963)   #4
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Fastest 2-litre was the Derek Walker Skoda LB14 I'd say.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 10:42 (Ref:2566980)   #5
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With suggestions like this, big andy, you could probably start a fight in a phone box!

Seriously, it's a difficult task, because over the period in which I was involved, times improved so much. For example, early in 1976 Rob Mason did a 51.6 round Brands in George Bevan's last club Imp, which at the time broke John Homewood's previous lap record (52.4?). Within ten years, David Enderby's VW Karmann Ghia was two seconds a lap faster, and after David have moved up to the 1300cc class, I believe Ben Bowlby, probably Ginger Marshall, and maybe Bob Jarvis, went faster still. Over the years, the balace of power in the 1300cc class went from Peter Baldwin to Alan Humberstone, back to PB, then to David Enderby until he moved up another class again, which left Peter back as the fastest 1300 once more, although I guess that most of the Demon Doctor's 1300cc lap records still stand.

Just as a suggestion, I think you need to add the up to 2500cc class that Special Saloons latterly had, so as to differentiate between the four cylinder Skodas, Escorts, BMWs, Firenzas and the like, and the real big bangers like Nick Whiting's GAA Escort, Baby Bertha, the Colin Hawker DFVW, and the like.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 10:47 (Ref:2566985)   #6
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Fastest 2-litre was the Derek Walker Skoda LB14 I'd say.
A difficult one to call, because although I rate Derek very highly as a driver (particularly quick at Oulton Park), he didn't travel extensively, and I'm not sure whether his Skoda was a full two litre; it may have only been an 1850cc BDE. Also, I'm not sure that his chassis was quite as good as some of his Lola- and Chevron-based opposition.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 11:06 (Ref:2567002)   #7
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A difficult one to call, because although I rate Derek very highly as a driver (particularly quick at Oulton Park), he didn't travel extensively, and I'm not sure whether his Skoda was a full two litre; it may have only been an 1850cc BDE. Also, I'm not sure that his chassis was quite as good as some of his Lola- and Chevron-based opposition.
And he's still extremely quick at Oulton, I chatted with him at the Gold Cup this year, because of problems he qualified his Terrier 26th and ended up finishing 2nd !!. I'm still in touch with him and he's bringing out one of his Ladybird Clubmans cars in Classic Clubmans next year.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 11:55 (Ref:2567042)   #8
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big andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbig andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
was bob jarvis in or did he have a 1200cc imp? ok clive whats your list ?
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 11:57 (Ref:2567044)   #9
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Interesting chaps, but I recall DW setting a new record at Mallory with LB14, faster than any other saloon ever round there, in 1980. However, at 46.9, it only equalled Nicky Ellis' modsports Elan time... And that time was with the Lotus motor, NOT the BDX he had installed for Donny GTs. I've no idea what the current MP saloon record is.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 12:01 (Ref:2567047)   #10
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big andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbig andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
derek walker was quick in his skoda late 70s early 80s?but the aston of ellis and the last of sugdens skodas in the big boy class would have been a second or so a lap quicker round mallory

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Old 22 Oct 2009, 12:15 (Ref:2567056)   #11
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was bob jarvis in or did he have a 1200cc imp?
998cc. His Davrians usually used big Imp motors, but not AFAIK the Ray Imp. I believe Brian Cutting may have raced his Maguire car on occasions with a 1220cc, but never in a series of races against the likes of Baldwin and Enderby.

As for my own list, I'm still thinking about that. Of all the names I've seen on this and other threads, one name I've never seen was Alex Clacher, who was immensely quick in a very light tin Imp for a few years. Originally best known for his battles with the Mini-Fords of Andy Barton and Sedric Bell, he once came to Brands, and was quicker than John Homewood was (albeit in a different race) on the same day.

One more thing- Dave Ellis's Aston couldn't have been a Special Saloon, surely- more a GT.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 13:06 (Ref:2567098)   #12
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One more thing- Dave Ellis's Aston couldn't have been a Special Saloon, surely- more a GT.
And from there it's just a small step to the Donington GTs with the likes of Lancia 037 with a F2 Toleman underneath or BMW M1 with a F5000 Chevron beneath.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 13:56 (Ref:2567114)   #13
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big andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbig andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
yes i supose the astin is more of a special GT so remove it from the list special saloons only .move sugden to top and bring colin hawkers dfvw or nick whitting 3.4gaa escort to third

Alex Clacher was very quick in his steel imp so were the minis of bell,barton but these were early steel special saloons of the early 1970s there times round croft were slow compared to geoff farmer in the adelfi imp of only 2/3 years later .the homewood car im thinking of is the later s/framed car was he the fastest of the impers or were there faster

yes some of the special GT cars from the donnington championship were probley faster but a lot of these cars did not compley to special saloon regs of the time

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Old 22 Oct 2009, 14:07 (Ref:2567122)   #14
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big andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbig andy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
[QUOTE
Just as a suggestion, I think you need to add the up to 2500cc class that Special Saloons latterly had, so as to differentiate between the four cylinder Skodas, Escorts, BMWs, Firenzas and the like, and the real big bangers like Nick Whiting's GAA Escort, Baby Bertha, the Colin Hawker DFVW, and the like.[/QUOTE]

the class structure was how ive split it clive later thunder saloons were split upto and over 2500cc and super saloons were special saloons over 1600cc??
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 18:09 (Ref:2567315)   #15
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No; the RAC Special Saloon Car regulations, to which the Wendy Wools Championship was run, had the five classes.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 18:19 (Ref:2567329)   #16
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From memory the super saloons were split at 2500cc as suggested by Clive earlier.

And I'm sticking to my thoughts about Baby Bertha. If that car was at the height of its development in 76/77 then so was Whiting's GAA Escort and the records show which car was quicker. The Beetle, DFVW, Skodas etc were slower.

Of course, generally, cars got quicker as the seasons passed until special saloons died a death and the GTs took over by which time I'd lost touch with racing.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 18:55 (Ref:2567355)   #17
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you'd have to take tyre developments into this, making it impossible to compare cars across the years guessing tyres would have imrpoved leaps and bounds over the years (?)

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Old 23 Oct 2009, 10:51 (Ref:2567801)   #18
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From memory the super saloons were split at 2500cc as suggested by Clive earlier.

And I'm sticking to my thoughts about Baby Bertha. If that car was at the height of its development in 76/77 then so was Whiting's GAA Escort and the records show which car was quicker. The Beetle, DFVW, Skodas etc were slower.

Of course, generally, cars got quicker as the seasons passed until special saloons died a death and the GTs took over by which time I'd lost touch with racing.
Paul, you're right re the Superloons, the class 'split' was 2500cc. But the category really only lasted from 75-77 from memory, whereas Special Saloons lasted longer. The early split put all the 1300s+ into one class.

I think by '78 the Whiting 3.4 Escort was quicker than Bertha, and when the GT Skodas came along, even with F2 motors, they were quicker still. On a tight track, eg MP, Brands club, I still reckon DW's Ladybird Skoda was the fastest!
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Old 23 Oct 2009, 11:45 (Ref:2567835)   #19
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you'd have to take tyre developments into this, making it impossible to compare cars across the years guessing tyres would have imrpoved leaps and bounds over the years (?)
Exactly the point. Ian Forrest once told me he took 4 seconds a lap off his Ingliston times with his Davrian over a period of about 3 years without modifying the car. He had simply bought the latest available tyres during the period
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Old 23 Oct 2009, 17:50 (Ref:2568150)   #20
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As for my own list, I'm still thinking about that. Of all the names I've seen on this and other threads, one name I've never seen was Alex Clacher, who was immensely quick in a very light tin Imp for a few years. Originally best known for his battles with the Mini-Fords of Andy Barton and Sedric Bell, he once came to Brands, and was quicker than John Homewood was (albeit in a different race) on the same day.

Alex Clacher was blisteringly fast here up north in the early 70s. I've just looked at some old results and at the Easter Monday Croft meeting in 1973 he came third in the saloon race that catered for all capacity classes. Alex's fastest lap was 1-18.2 and Bill Dryden's Firenza won the race with a fastest lap of 1-17.2.

He regularly made 1300 Minis and 1600/2000 Anglias and Escorts look silly.
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Old 26 Oct 2009, 08:33 (Ref:2569868)   #21
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Lap records at the end of 1980

In Mike Kettlewell's Motor Racing Directory, lap records are given for special saloons at 14 English circuits (ie Brands long and short, Silverstone long and short etc).

Up to 850 cc - Charles Bernstein 848 Mini 4 lap records and 1 joint lap record.
Up t0 1000 cc - Brian Cutting 998 Maguire Stiletto and Mike Parkes 999 Mini 3 lap records each.
Up to 1300 cc - Peter Baldwin 1298 Mini Allen BDA (BB6) 9 lap records and 1 joint lap record.
Up to 2500 cc - Tony Dickinson 1994 Skoda Hart (T492) 8 lap records.
Over 2500 cc - Nick Whiting 3412 Escort V6 4 lap records and one joint lap record.
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