Group A Holden Commodores in Europe

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by scooby12

Hi Guys

i can confirm that chris maries did buy the alan grice vk from a guy who use to race in the barc nw sports saloons, (can't remember is name but he raced a nissan 240rs before the holden).

this i know because i worked on it, been part of the team also graham nash raced it with chris in the thundersaloons in 1991 ish plus other guest drivers.

and then was sold on to phil rose who raced it in the barc nw sport saloons for a year i think. who then sold it on to ric woods .

thats all i can't remember hope it helps a bit

cheers

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Found in the 28 November '91 Autosport classifieds - Chris Maries selling an ex-Grice ETC Commodore. Picture is of the Thundersaloon car, complete with Dupont logo. 5-speed box, not a 4-speed as Al said Pete Barnes car had (so the '86 Cleland Woodman TT car, by elimination?).
For sale by seperate negotiation are a pair of TWR full race engines.

So the timeline ('86 to '96) for this car seems to be Grice - O'Brien - Amhren - Maries - Mick Philips - Alan Walters.

I'd overlooked Scooby12s post when compiling the list of owners. Phil Rose definitely has a Commodore at the start of '93, and is "continuing" to campaign it in the BARC NW. I'll scan the picture later.

I think my list above confuses two cars -

the '86 Grice car (Grice, O'Brien, Amhren, ??? (Mr 240RS NW Saloons), Chris Maries, Phil Rose, ?Ric Wood?)

with whatever became the "Senator" in Thundersaloons (GMDS, Stevens, Phillips, Walters, ???, back to Oz). Apologies for that - I must learnt to proof-read!

Al, if you read this - can you remember when (years) Pete Barnes had the Commodore? And can anyone in the know tell whether it was HDT or Roadways from the photos on page 17?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

the '86 Grice car (Grice, O'Brien, Amhren, ??? (Mr 240RS NW Saloons), Chris Maries, Phil Rose, ?Ric Wood?)

I'm pretty sure there was a bloke called Brian or Roger (Litherland?) who raced a 240RS and then had a Commodore VK in the NW Series.

I'm sure it was the VK in question?

Can anyone check local programmes from the early 90's?

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Al, if you read this - can you remember when (years) Pete Barnes had the Commodore? And can anyone in the know tell whether it was HDT or Roadways from the photos on page 17?

To me the Barnes (?) VK in ModProd guise is ex Grice (Roadways).

[Tim Wilkinson]

Is that from looking at the car? It seems to add up that it is the ex-Grice car, gone from Phil Rose to Pete Barnes, then to Ric Wood. Nearly all of the period programmes I have are from Brands; I'd dearly love to get my hands on Thundersaloon info (programmes, results sheets) from any other circuit!


To throw in something controversial (and stand well back) from the end of '93 -

"Holden Commodore ex-Peter Brock. James Hardy 1000 winning car. Winner of the Thundersaloon Championship 3 times." The number given is for a business that entered the Senator in '92 Thundersaloons. I wonder if anyone has got in touch with them to ask why they thought it was the winning car?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Is that from looking at the car? It seems to add up that it is the ex-Grice car, gone from Phil Rose to Pete Barnes, then to Ric Wood. Nearly all of the period programmes I have are from Brands; I'd dearly love to get my hands on Thundersaloon info (programmes, results sheets) from any other circuit!


To throw in something controversial (and stand well back) from the end of '93 -

"Holden Commodore ex-Peter Brock. James Hardy 1000 winning car. Winner of the Thundersaloon Championship 3 times." The number given is for a business that entered the Senator in '92 Thundersaloons. I wonder if anyone has got in touch with them to ask why they thought it was the winning car?

Is that a Group 'A' car, or the ex-Cleland ex-HDT VK Commodore, 1984 Bathurst winner?

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Is that from looking at the car? It seems to add up that it is the ex-Grice car, gone from Phil Rose to Pete Barnes, then to Ric Wood. Nearly all of the period programmes I have are from Brands; I'd dearly love to get my hands on Thundersaloon info (programmes, results sheets) from any other circuit!


To throw in something controversial (and stand well back) from the end of '93 -

"Holden Commodore ex-Peter Brock. James Hardy 1000 winning car. Winner of the Thundersaloon Championship 3 times." The number given is for a business that entered the Senator in '92 Thundersaloons. I wonder if anyone has got in touch with them to ask why they thought it was the winning car?

Ric Wood has told me he purchased the ex-Grice VK from Maries and then later sold to Pete Barnes. Barnes then sold it about 6 years ago.

[Tim Wilkinson]

To GTRMagic - The '84 car, discussed here -

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=210



To Camaroz - that's really confusing. It could have worked like that, although I've found no mention in '92 or '93 of Ric Wood racing it. As far as I can make out Chris Maries last had it in '91. Someone who worked on it said this - http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=114

At least we can reckon on it being the same car, whoever owned it whenever!

[KA]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

To throw in something controversial (and stand well back) from the end of '93 -

"Holden Commodore ex-Peter Brock. James Hardy 1000 winning car. Winner of the Thundersaloon Championship 3 times." The number given is for a business that entered the Senator in '92 Thundersaloons. I wonder if anyone has got in touch with them to ask why they thought it was the winning car?

I won't swear to this without referring back to early 1985 Autosports or MNs, but I suspect that might be because we were told it was the ex-#05 car in the UK press at the time it came over...

[Alex E]

I don`t want to add more confusion, but about 7-8 years ago I bought a VK Commodore that had been built in Germany by Opel for Guy Frequelin to drive in the French Super Tourisme series. At the time I was trying to find out where it came from originally. As it was a factory Opel programme (apparently because they thought they should be doing something....) I spoke with Tony Fall about it. He told me the body was sourced from the factory in Germany & it was built new by Opel. I was never convinced about this as it was a RHD VK shell which I assumed was only built for the Australian market. Seems to me it must have either been a new shell sent over from Australia, or possibly a previously used car / body which would have to have come from Australia.
My interest has faded a little as the car is now back in Australia, but maybe interesting somehow?

Alex

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Alex E

I don`t want to add more confusion, but about 7-8 years ago I bought a VK Commodore that had been built in Germany by Opel for Guy Frequelin to drive in the French Super Tourisme series. At the time I was trying to find out where it came from originally. As it was a factory Opel programme (apparently because they thought they should be doing something....) I spoke with Tony Fall about it. He told me the body was sourced from the factory in Germany & it was built new by Opel. I was never convinced about this as it was a RHD VK shell which I assumed was only built for the Australian market. Seems to me it must have either been a new shell sent over from Australia, or possibly a previously used car / body which would have to have come from Australia.
My interest has faded a little as the car is now back in Australia, but maybe interesting somehow?

Alex

Not confusing at all Alex. Marty Watt, ex-HDT, has confirmed that the "French" VK was totally sourced in kit form from Holden and the HDT and was built in Europe.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by KA

I won't swear to this without referring back to early 1985 Autosports or MNs, but I suspect that might be because we were told it was the ex-#05 car in the UK press at the time it came over...

You may have been "told" by the press it was the 1984 Bathurst winner..........................

It came second!

CCC

[Alex E]

Hi Camaroz,
OK that makes more sense. At the time I contacted various Holden related people in Australia, but nobody could tell me anything about it, or the numbers on it. Obviously I was not asking the right people.

Alex.

[Alfie72]

Camaroz - you seem to be well up on things, so can I get your reaction to my earlier post #245.

If Mort Brown could not be definitive of which car was which, how can anyone be certain. One thing is clear, there was an awful lot of chassis plate engineering going on at the time and as Mort said, probably only PB knows which car is which.

And I may have missed the post which clarified this point but weren't the cars that came first and second in '84 carrying race numbers 24(1st) and 25(2nd)?

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Alfie72

Camaroz - you seem to be well up on things, so can I get your reaction to my earlier post #245.

If Mort Brown could not be definitive of which car was which, how can anyone be certain. One thing is clear, there was an awful lot of chassis plate engineering going on at the time and as Mort said, probably only PB knows which car is which.

And I may have missed the post which clarified this point but weren't the cars that came first and second in '84 carrying race numbers 24(1st) and 25(2nd)?

Bathurst 1984, 05 first, 25 second.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Alfie72

Camaroz - you seem to be well up on things, so can I get your reaction to my earlier post #245.

If Mort Brown could not be definitive of which car was which, how can anyone be certain. One thing is clear, there was an awful lot of chassis plate engineering going on at the time and as Mort said, probably only PB knows which car is which.

And I may have missed the post which clarified this point but weren't the cars that came first and second in '84 carrying race numbers 24(1st) and 25(2nd)?

It's been proven pretty conclusively in Australia that the '84 Bathurst winner has been in Bathurst since 1985, and the #25 car went to GM Dealersport in England (via John Farrell in WA)

Peter Brock and Larry Perkins even attended the 'handing over' ceremony of their winning #05 to the Bathurst Museum in Bathurst week '85....

[mdswat]

Originally Posted by one five five

It's been proven pretty conclusively in Australia that the '84 Bathurst winner has been in Bathurst since 1985, and the #25 car went to GM Dealersport in England (via John Farrell in WA)

Peter Brock and Larry Perkins even attended the 'handing over' ceremony of their winning #05 to the Bathurst Museum in Bathurst week '85....

the museum car is indeed the real 05.
has been proven, and know one has given me proof against it.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by mdswat

the museum car is indeed the real 05.
has been proven, and know one has given me proof against it.

Absolutely no doubt.

[Nortad]

Hi, sorry to ressurrect this old thread to mooch off of you guys, but does anyone have a magazine scan that was flowing around of an article about the Holden Commodore campaign in Europe back in the 80´s where it talks about how it all went south because of the "energy polarizer" thingy?

Thanks

[GTRMagic]

Interesting article in the current Australian Muscle Car magazine this month (Issue #57), focused on the 1986 Bathurst winning Grice/Bailey Chickadee VK Commodore...



They interview Mr Small, builder of 9 Group 'A' spec Holden Commodores from his Roadways equipe...

Originally Posted by The Article

RWGPA1 - VK for Warren Cullen to run at Bathurst 1985 (run as #26 for Grice/Cullen)
RWGPA2 - VK for Graeme Bowkett's Sleepyhead Racing at Bathurst 1985 (run as #39 for Bowkett/Wilkinson)
RWGPA3 - VK GpA for the European season for Grice & rentadrivers...
RWGPA4 - VK GpA for Graeme Hooley to run in local WA events
RWGPA5 - VK GpA for Graeme Bailey's Chickadee Racing at Bathurst 1986 (run as #2 for Grice/Bailey) James Hardie 1000 Winner!
RWGPA6 - VK GpA for the AGP, Fuji 1986 for Grice (AGP) & Graeme Crosby (Fuji) and the early 1987 season
RWGPA7 - VL GpA for Bob Jane Roadways Team 1987 ATCC for Grice (run as #2 Bathurst 1987 Grice/Percy)
RWGPA8 - VL TWR for FAI Roadways Team (run as #2 Bathurst 1988 for Grice/Percy)
RWGPA9 - VL TWR for Garry Rogers (run as #33 Bathurst 1988 for Rogers/Andretti)

... no mention of sending chassis or engines to Europe for TWR to use in the development of their Herbie Clips and later HRT Commodores...

The story talks to updating the RWGPA3 chassis as more things were learned in Europe, in suspension, in engine, in rear axle ratios and components.. all of which also ended up in a similar spec on Mr Bailey's RWGPA5 customer car, that went onto win Bathurst 1986...

[KA]

That settles that one then!

...but it does leave a couple of questions- First, there have been a few mentions in the thread of TWR having at least one VK as a test hack as part of the preparation for the 1987 season, before the VLs were ready to not show up for the WTCC... There was that photo of a white VK with a TWR sunstrip in Autosport shortly before the solitary Nurburgring WTCC appearance by the VL. So where did this white car come from?

Secondly, did we ever clear up what happened to the pair of VKs that Brock used in his 1986 ETCC appearances- think it was suggested earlier in the thread that Brock's regular ATCC car was shipped over to be the second car at Spa, but did both cars then go back to Australia?

We know that one was still in Europe to appear as the GM DealerSport entry for Cleland/Woodman at the TT, http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ADD/xv5775.jpg
and was being advertised for sale in Autosport by mid-October.Did it sell, and if so, where to?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

We know that one was still in Europe to appear as the GM DealerSport entry for Cleland/Woodman at the TT, http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...ADD/xv5775.jpg
and was being advertised for sale in Autosport by mid-October.Did it sell, and if so, where to?

Hmmm, if that TWR hack wasn't a Les Small car then the roads of enquiry now seem to lay at the door of this Brock TT car then.....

[KA]

Could be....To the best of my knowledge, there were only three Group A VK Commodores seen in Europe in 1986- Grice's car (accounted for- as we know it became Mike O'Brien's BTCC car) and the two Brock cars-

Brock brought one to Europe at the beginning of the season for the ETC races, and a second, (which it's suggested earlier in the thread was Brock's regular ATCC car), which came over as a second car for Spa- Brock's ETC campaign ended after Spa, and I'm guessing one car went home to Australia in time for Sandown and Bathurst, while the other stayed on to do the TT as the GMDS car, and be advertised for sale in Autosport in October.
I'm guessing it was still in Europe, as the contact numbers given in the Autosport ad were for Bill Cleland and Tony Fall, rather than anyone at HDT.
Other than TWR, there were only a couple of VL Commodores raced in Europe in '87- the Belgian/Dutch Serge Power and Jeroen Hin/Playboy cars, so if the '86 HDT VK was sold on in Europe, then I guess it was either converted to a VL and became one of these, or was sold to TWR as a test hack...Unless TWR built a test VK in-house for some reason....?

[William Dale Jr]

Don't forget the Mike O'Brien VK and the Mike O'Brien VL were two different cars; the former the Roadways built car, the latter appeared to be a HDT VK upgraded to VL spec. I think we covered this somewhere earlier in this thread.

[KA]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

Don't forget the Mike O'Brien VK and the Mike O'Brien VL were two different cars; the former the Roadways built car, the latter appeared to be a HDT VK upgraded to VL spec. I think we covered this somewhere earlier in this thread.

Thanks William- I originally didn't mention the 1988 O'Brien VL in that last post to avoid confusion, but you've just raised an interesting point that I'd forgotten- if it was converted from a VK, then unless one was imported from Australia by Alan Docking/Mike O'Brien, then there's only one car it can have been- the Brock 'European' car....

So is the chain of events for this car now '1986 Brock European camapign > 1986 GMDS car at the TT > 1986/7 TWR VK test hack > 1988 converted to VL for ADR/O'Brien'
...or is there another VK that we've somehow missed?

I'll try and dig out the Autosport piece with the pic later and take another look at it

[KA]

The other question that comes to mind involves the VLs seen in Europe in 1987. I'll leave out of the equation the two Australian cars (Moffatt's Rothmans car in the early WTCC rounds and Brock's Spa appearance) plus TWR's solitary outing at the Nurburgring WTCC race, and concentrate on the other two European VLs- the Serge Power pair of Michel Delcourt and Jeroen Hin.

Looking at the race results posted on Frank de Jong's site, Hin's 'Playboy'-sponsored car seems to have debuted at the Zolder ETCC race in June, then mainly appeared in the Dutch series, apparently making it's Dutch debut the very same weekend, racing at Zolder on the Sunday and Zandvoort on the Monday! (presumably a public holiday in Holland). It also appeared at Spa, and was leased by Vic Covey & Andrew Jeffrey for the TT:

http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/j...06SSTT-102.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-034.jpg

The Delcourt/Guyaux car appears to have first appeared at the Nurburgring WTCC race, then Spa and Silverstone. Australian Graham Moore joined them for Spa, (with Delcourt going on to co-drive Moore's VK at Bathurst, as he had in 1986) and Jerry Mahony for the TT.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-024.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-06-023.jpg


Where did these cars originate- it was suggested earlier in the thread that they were bought as completed cars (IIRC Serge Power were mainly engine builders?), rather than built up by the team(s) but weren't sourced from Australia.

Could the Delcourt-Moore link have had any significance? It could at least account for Delcourt choosing to go with the Australian car over any of the European options (he'd also been one of Grice's various European co-drivers in 1986), but did Serge Power & Delcourt perhaps source parts and bodyshells, if not complete cars, from Australia via Moore (Who built Moore's VK incidentally?)

Additionally, an 'Elkron France' Commodore appeared at the Nogaro ETC race late-season for Jarier/Barlesi.
The earliest mention I can find so far of a French Group A Commodore are appearances by Jarier, sharing a car with either Jean-Pierre Jabouille or Joel Gouhier in three French Group A rounds in May/June at Monthlery, Paul Ricard and Rouen, listed as a Serge Power entry.
Is this one of the Delcourt/Hin pair, or was there a third Commodore?

The Elkron car at Nogaro probably wasn't the Hin/Playboy car, as Hin was racing in the Dutch series at Zandvoort the same day