LMP1 indipendants to run GT1 6.0 V12 production engines?

[AstonGeoff]

Surely the privateer LMP1 teams don't really need to spend out on converting to production based engines, its more that the ACO need to tweak the rules for racing engines to allow them to compete a bit better. Would increasing the air restrictors allow them to run faster?

If the Lola Aston is that quick from scratch then it's difficult to say if its the car or the engine or the drivers. Since no one else is running the chassis with, say, a Judd engine then we don't know which factor is making the difference, or if it's a combination of all three! But it certainly seemed to be the fastest petrol powered LMP1, the race also showed that the gap between diesel and petrol powered cars is as big if not bigger than before, surely both Audi and Peugeot will now start a development war!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Does Peugeot and Lola Aston Martin run the bigger restrictors from the air conditioner? If they do, do they have an actual air conditioner?

I think Peugeot does not use an airco, so don't get the bigger restrictor. I don't know about Prodrive.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Surely the privateer LMP1 teams don't really need to spend out on converting to production based engines, its more that the ACO need to tweak the rules for racing engines to allow them to compete a bit better. Would increasing the air restrictors allow them to run faster?

If the Lola Aston is that quick from scratch then it's difficult to say if its the car or the engine or the drivers. Since no one else is running the chassis with, say, a Judd engine then we don't know which factor is making the difference, or if it's a combination of all three! But it certainly seemed to be the fastest petrol powered LMP1, the race also showed that the gap between diesel and petrol powered cars is as big if not bigger than before, surely both Audi and Peugeot will now start a development war!

Geoff - I largely agree with what you say, I'm hoping the restrictor breaks they have given to the Gt1 based engines in LMP1 are short term and will soon be applied across the board, as from what I can see the aston has about 40bhp over the Judds.

as for packaging a 60 degree V12 into an open-top LMP1 take a look at this.......

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/bmwengine.html

I seem to remember the BMW's went very well in their day.......it can be done even better now days, as the twin roll hoop nature of todays LMP1 rules gives more of a frontal packaging envelope for the engine........the BMW was a single roll hoop car

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

If the Lola Aston is that quick from scratch then it's difficult to say if its the car or the engine or the drivers. Since no one else is running the chassis with, say, a Judd engine then we don't know which factor is making the difference, or if it's a combination of all three

Certainly , the car is quick outta the box , but it still needs loads of work to compete against Pug & Audi , and challange for a win . As far as I know , it didnt have any technical issues in the race ..... but was still 3 laps down at the end .

I was more extreamly surprised about the reliability of the thing !!!

[AstonGeoff]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I was more extreamly surprised about the reliability of the thing !!!

So was I, but then we shouldn't have been really! Lola have been building decent prototyps for years, the Aston engine has been very reliable in the DBR9, and AMR/Prodrive are a very professional outfit, so the ingredients were all right!

[The Badger]

Agreed , but still it is impressive , cuz as far as I am aware , the project got a late green light . The whole AMR/Prodrive/Charouz project is working very well indeed .

Makes you wonder what a Lola Maseratti might do ..... hopefully one for the future .

Also makes you wonder , when you look at their lap times , how could they be 3 laps back at the finish ? Did they get caught out with one of those magically appearing pace cars ?

[SebringMG]

I would suggest that part of the problem the privateers have is not very good chassis.......

A) consider that the new Lola(s) were the class of their respective fields (excepting the RS)
B) while the Oreca car is better than before it is still using a tub that Acura were not terribly impressed with by all accounts and had to be massively changed (Also aero work still underway)
C) Pescarolo chassis that is limited by money and a distinct lack of aero testing

Also a Judd with all due respect to them will not be as good an engine as Prodrive can produce (years ago yes - not now IMO) - comes down to budget

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Agreed , but still it is impressive , cuz as far as I am aware , the project got a late green light . The whole AMR/Prodrive/Charouz project is working very well indeed .

Makes you wonder what a Lola Maseratti might do ..... hopefully one for the future .

Also makes you wonder , when you look at their lap times , how could they be 3 laps back at the finish ? Did they get caught out with one of those magically appearing pace cars ?

They lost time in the pits somewhere around 3/4 distance - spent 3 minutes more in the pits than the leaders!! No idea for what though!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Could you for example , use the engine outta the C6R and sleeve it down to 6 litres ?

Destroked? YES might provied even more torque.

1000 production based engines? Well how many LS7s in the C6Z06 have been produced? Over 10,000 IIRC

[WMUCarGuy]

How about a Corvette's LS7.R in the back of an LMP?? Now that would be awesome!

[broadrun96]

The C6.R lump in the back of a proto would be closest to the diesels in torque I'd guess but how low would the revs be and what kind of hp loss would there be sleeving or destroking it? Would be great to see Panoz build a coupe LMP1 car with PM running a LS7, or renamed LS6.R lump in it. American tub/engine vs British tub/engine and maybe a Maserati/Dallara for the Italian side, Acura tub and engine (ok, so mostly american but will a Dome/Mugen materialize?) and Porsche tub/motor in LMP1. Pipe dream but a good world championship lineup there to be added to Pug and Audi (ok, they dont make there own tub/chassis but I was trying)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by knighty

ok, so I have just watched the start of the barcelona round, and the main talking point is the Aston is well in the mix with the diesels.......on another post I calculated based on Aston GT1 power figures and restrictor size, that a 6.0 V12 with the LMP1 air con allowance added on, is producing about 695bhp......and I have a tenner that says Prodrive have pushed this figure to 700bhp.......

so whats stopping say for exaplle rollcentre/Oreca/Bob berridge etc purchasing a V12 aston or ferrari V12 production engine, which is a homologated GT1 engine, converting it to LMP1 spec, then go racing........as it seems to me that the aston engine does have the legs over the Judd units now.......admittedly, I dont want to take anything away from the car - the Lola coupe looks pretty handy too.

How much was down to the engine, or was it a combination of the chassis, drivers and team?

The R10 looks like a (very quick) lumbering wildebeest compared to the 908, likewise the Lola Coupe looked to have a lower Cg and more ground hugging than the open cars.

That being said if I was a privateer team, I'd be contacting the likes of Aston Martin, Maserati, Ferrari and GM for a GT1 spec engine, not least because they can run flat out for a full race distance.

I'll be amazed if we don't see a Vitaphone LMP1 with a Maserati engine within 12 months, especially considering the uncertaintly in FIA GT1.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Surely the privateer LMP1 teams don't really need to spend out on converting to production based engines, its more that the ACO need to tweak the rules for racing engines to allow them to compete a bit better. Would increasing the air restrictors allow them to run faster?

If the Lola Aston is that quick from scratch then it's difficult to say if its the car or the engine or the drivers. Since no one else is running the chassis with, say, a Judd engine then we don't know which factor is making the difference, or if it's a combination of all three! But it certainly seemed to be the fastest petrol powered LMP1, the race also showed that the gap between diesel and petrol powered cars is as big if not bigger than before, surely both Audi and Peugeot will now start a development war!

What I gathered from this race was the gap between diesel and petrol P-1's is still there but closer than most everybody thinks (by rule). When a brand new semi-works/heavily backed privateer petrol team can be that close with the Peugeot's and Audi's (P#8 1:33:515 P#7 1:34:188 A#1 1:34:953 A#2 1:35:297 and the Lola/AM #10 1:35:531) then it seems that a lot of the gap is;big mfg vs boutique mfg/privateer. Also with the performance of the Spyders and the B08/80 Lola against all the other petrol cars it shows the performance of that group to be lacking. It would seem that the old guard are on notice.
Yes, maybe a small restrictor adjustment for the P-1 cars (amount varied open vs. coupe) might be in order until a "works" team comes along and, or if, disproves the need for it to be competitive.
In P-2, wow! Quifel with a 1:38:172 showed that it is possible for the "others" in the class to be close in pace with the Spyder and B08/80. Now the question becomes, can they? Will be an interesting year.

My question here is; does the LMS have the will (huevos) to adjust the rules to rectify these things or if it even has enough autonomy to do so?

L.P.

[Mal]

DSC say that Martin Birrane has been hinting at a Diesel Lola project

[Tim the Grey]

Vitaphone Lola Maserati...
Intriguing thought.

Though Dallara would probably sort a bespoke chassis if asked!

I really do think that diesels are still ahead of everything else in the sheer grunt department, but surely ballast and restrictor tweaking should level the field more? Not far to go, if Barcelona was any guide, TBH.

[FIRE]

Ricardo-Judd Diesel V10?

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Vitaphone Lola Maserati...
Intriguing thought.

Though Dallara would probably sort a bespoke chassis if asked!

I really do think that diesels are still ahead of everything else in the sheer grunt department, but surely ballast and restrictor tweaking should level the field more? Not far to go, if Barcelona was any guide, TBH.

We had the Dallara issue before- they make the Audi, and i don't think ullrich would be too pleased.

And can i pause people just a second here- do we remember the lister LMP?

May i remind the honourable gents and ladies here what engine was in the boot?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by minimangler

We had the Dallara issue before- they make the Audi, and i don't think ullrich would be too pleased.

And can i pause people just a second here- do we remember the lister LMP?

May i remind the honourable gents and ladies here what engine was in the boot?

And your point about the Lister is?

L.P.

[bludvl_x19]

It had an engine in the boot??

Mick

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'll be amazed if we don't see a Vitaphone LMP1 with a Maserati engine within 12 months, especially considering the uncertaintly in FIA GT1.

The 1000 engine rule for the performance breaks might be a problem for the Maserati, as there are below 100 road going MC12s IIRC.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

What I gathered from this race was the gap between diesel and petrol P-1's is still there but closer than most everybody thinks (by rule). When a brand new semi-works/heavily backed privateer petrol team can be that close with the Peugeot's and Audi's (P#8 1:33:515 P#7 1:34:188 A#1 1:34:953 A#2 1:35:297 and the Lola/AM #10 1:35:531) then it seems that a lot of the gap is;big mfg vs boutique mfg/privateer. Also with the performance of the Spyders and the B08/80 Lola against all the other petrol cars it shows the performance of that group to be lacking. It would seem that the old guard are on notice.
Yes, maybe a small restrictor adjustment for the P-1 cars (amount varied open vs. coupe) might be in order until a "works" team comes along and, or if, disproves the need for it to be competitive.
In P-2, wow! Quifel with a 1:38:172 showed that it is possible for the "others" in the class to be close in pace with the Spyder and B08/80. Now the question becomes, can they? Will be an interesting year.

My question here is; does the LMS have the will (huevos) to adjust the rules to rectify these things or if it even has enough autonomy to do so?

L.P.

Watching on TV, on track, the Lola Aston genuinely looked quicker than the R10.

Later in the season I'd say lookout for the ORECA, it looked very good, with little running.

I reckon a 3% bigger restrictor for the petrol cars, or similar cut in the diesel
restrictor, will see the leading petrol cars bang on the pace of the diesels.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The 1000 engine rule for the performance breaks might be a problem for the Maserati, as there are below 100 road going MC12s IIRC.

It's also basically the same engine in the Enzo and 612.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Watching on TV, on track, the Lola Aston genuinely looked quicker than the R10.

Later in the season I'd say lookout for the ORECA, it looked very good, with little running.

I reckon a 3% bigger restrictor for the petrol cars, or similar cut in the diesel
restrictor, will see the leading petrol cars bang on the pace of the diesels.

Well at this point with Art. 19.2 on the books I would think they would pull back the diesels to the petrol cars. And the surest way I can think to do that is by mbar, rail pressure and injector adjustments.

L.P.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Well at this point with Art. 19.2 on the books I would think they would pull back the diesels to the petrol cars. And the surest way I can think to do that is by mbar, rail pressure and injector adjustments.

L.P.

They'll probably give all the cars smaller rear wings, and pull back the restrictors on the diesels.

The quickest a petrol car went during the race last year was 3.33, the diesels were in the 3.26's.

The diesel manufactuers will ensure they're not hit hard, due to lobbying and disguising their cars true performance level, so maybe a 5% restrictor cut and 25kg ballast, in addition to a smaller rear wing.

We've seen how development of the LMP2 cars has overcome a 5% restrictor cut and 25kg ballast in the ALMS, 50kg in the LMS!

[Tim the Grey]

That was a spare...

It's an old joke. I'll get me coat!