Theisen calls DTM a "GT Series"...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=2183

Well... Do we agree with him? Is it time to move the DTM topics to the sportscar forum?

[Satorian]

Personally, I've always thought that DTM is more GT than TC racing. But I wouldn't put it at the top of GT racing. That spot is definitely reserved for (A)LMS and FIA GT. The closest series to DTM in spirit would probably be SuperGT, and that is also more attractive than DTM.

Actually I don't really know why manufacturers bother with DTM. DTM '88 to '92 was fantastic. Everything after was just meh.

[GTfour]

Meh ?

I too don't see the DTM as a sportscar/GT class allthough I think they'd give the current GT1's in the FIA-GT and LMS a run for their money on the tight and twisty bits of a track,not to mention blowing GT2's clear in the bushes standing next to it...

[Speed-King]

They are for sure no touring cars.
GT cars only if you count tubeframe cars as true GT-machines.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

They are for sure no touring cars.
GT cars only if you count tubeframe cars as true GT-machines.

In that respect SuperGT is the closed thing to DTM cars.

[Aysedasi]

They're touring cars. Always will be.

[historical reference]Just no-one ask me about the M3....... [/historical reference]

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In that respect SuperGT is the closed thing to DTM cars.

Yeah, or Grand Am GT, with the exception of the Porsches. With the GXP.R, the Mustang and the Mazda they do even have some pretty touringcar-ish machines
Super GT is closer because of the state-of-the art aero, but the cars retain at least some basic structures from the original car, whereas Grand Am GT cars are compete tubeframers like the DTM machines. DTM cars have an additional carbonfibre monocoque, though, IIRC.

I've been saying for quite some time now, that a 2 class structure with 4+4 new cars from Merc and Audi in division 1, and a cheaper tubeframe class in division 2 for privateers would make DTM much more attractive for me. And while they are at it, they should rename it to DRM.

[Adam43]

They are no bog standard family car, that is for sure. However they are no sportscar/GT either. However in terms of spec., power and speed they are similar to a GT car and this is what Theissen means when he says "like".

However they aren't true sportscars and the racing is very different from normal sportscar racing. Shorter races and contact is part and parcel of the series.

Current DTM doesn't really sit in Touring Car or GT racing. Although, who says it should.

[Purist]

So, while we're at it, where do we think AV8SC fits in the GT/TC spectrum?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Current DTM doesn't really sit in Touring Car or GT racing. Although, who says it should.

That's the problem, you'd think faster, more spectacular cars would appeal, but the current DTM cars have far less appeal than the 80's-90's Group A production cars.

DTM tries to emulate F1....at a time when so much is wrong with that sport!

If they adopted WTCC regs, but made all cars RWD with 400bhp engines, of any type so long as they are production based, it would be fantastic.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

That's the problem, you'd think faster, more spectacular cars would appeal, but the current DTM cars have far less appeal than the 80's-90's Group A production cars.

DTM tries to emulate F1....at a time when so much is wrong with that sport!

If they adopted WTCC regs, but made all cars RWD with 400bhp engines, of any type so long as they are production based, it would be fantastic.

Ding-Ding!

DTM like it USE to be was great, before ITC was good, but enormous cost killed it. But they liked the look and the technology and largely have stuck with it.

All they did was banned AWD really. Same high tech purpose built racing engines, costly gear boxes and carbon fiber chassis.... All your missing from the ITC days is AWD, Alfa and Opel...

All you need is two companies to have a race, but its kinda boring seeing just Audi's and Benz's, kind of like NASCAR when it was just Chevy and Ford, yes bitter rivals but hardly exciting.

I guess that's why we like sportscars = variety

Theisen has a screw loose...

The main subject however was DTM in need of a 3rd OEM and of course they would look in their own backyard first.

Toyota built a concept car that look an awful lot like DTM car.

http://lexus.jp/brand/event/autosalon2008/

Why not knock on Toyota's door??? Lexus currently doesn't have a "performance" image in Europe or America for that matter... I think this is the tree they should be barking up.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Toyota built a concept car that look an awful lot like DTM car.

It should...IIRC they bought an old Opel chassis and put a Lexus body on it.

IMO anything that's completely purpose-built for racing should be called a prototype. VW doesn't mind admitting that the Race Touareg doesn't have anything in common with a roadcar, so why do the DTM manufacturers have to pretend?
(Last year Ekström appeared in a major German TV show and was asked how much his car has in common with a road going A4. "A lot." )

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

(Last year Ekström appeared in a major German TV show and was asked how much his car has in common with a road going A4. "A lot." )

Head lights and grill logo?

[kingkai]

Yes why not...
DTM cars drive around the same laptimes as GT1 cars. Same sort of car build-up. Maybe more SuperGT like. But my personal opinion they don't differ that much. It is just a bit more over done as with the old GT1 category (in essence the Porsche 911 GT1 '96 does same sort of lap timing)

[Purist]

The silhouette of a DTM car has to more or less match the road car, and the roof and pillars I think have to be effectively from the roadcar.

[johntt]

I'd say that they are in the grey area of tube frame production bodied machinery inhabited by Grand-Am GT and SuperGT.

[The359]

I think DTM was closer to GT when they used to run cope bodies, rather than the 4-doors they use now.

I loved the old Abt Audi TT-Rs, and even have a diecast of the CLK-DTM.