Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing > North American Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 9 Aug 2017, 22:07 (Ref:3758484)   #8176
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 15,377
TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!
Their wec budget probably lies between teams like Force India and Williams. The new engines must be easy to get right if they don't increase the budget from that. I think if they do go to F1, they'll probably look to acquire/brand a team already there (like Toro Rosso) or just try their luck with engine supply.
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Aug 2017, 22:27 (Ref:3758488)   #8177
hondafan37
Veteran
 
hondafan37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Argentina
Buenos Aires, Argentine
Posts: 1,919
hondafan37 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridhondafan37 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
Their wec budget probably lies between teams like Force India and Williams. The new engines must be easy to get right if they don't increase the budget from that. I think if they do go to F1, they'll probably look to acquire/brand a team already there (like Toro Rosso) or just try their luck with engine supply.
After a few years and if they occupy a good position in the championship of constructors the budget is increased by the payment received by the teams of the FOM.
Also it is easier to get sponsors for Formula 1 than for the WEC.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...17-903197/amp/
hondafan37 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 11:10 (Ref:3758587)   #8178
Brake dust
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2012
United States
Posts: 239
Brake dust should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
After a few years and if they occupy a good position in the championship of constructors the budget is increased by the payment received by the teams of the FOM.
Also it is easier to get sponsors for Formula 1 than for the WEC.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...17-903197/amp/
In terms of sponsorship in F1, why is it that the most of the cars have no sponsorship on their cars? Seems strange.

I believe Porsche will only supply engines - a revenue generator for the company with some Porsche logos on the cars. With the limits on testing in F1 - too big of a risk for Porsche to be a back marker on an international stage while they try to develop their car.
Brake dust is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3758601)   #8179
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,215
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brake dust View Post
In terms of sponsorship in F1, why is it that the most of the cars have no sponsorship on their cars? Seems strange.

I believe Porsche will only supply engines - a revenue generator for the company with some Porsche logos on the cars. With the limits on testing in F1 - too big of a risk for Porsche to be a back marker on an international stage while they try to develop their car.
Even MB have said the engine deals costs them money so the idea Porsche could jump in now and make money is kind of far fetched. F1's costs are insanely high and doubt a Porsche badge on the engine cover would get any team enough cash to cover the costs for the engine package in a season.
broadrun96 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 15:25 (Ref:3758632)   #8180
Maelochs
Veteran
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,434
Maelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Even MB have said the engine deals costs them money so the idea Porsche could jump in now and make money is kind of far fetched. F1's costs are insanely high and doubt a Porsche badge on the engine cover would get any team enough cash to cover the costs for the engine package in a season.
Porsche would have to score points and earn cash from the constructors' championship /TV pool money as far as I know to make back anything from F1.

Who would rent an untested Porsche engine? Even Honda looks better than a completely untried power plant.
Maelochs is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 16:02 (Ref:3758637)   #8181
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Porsche would have to score points and earn cash from the constructors' championship /TV pool money as far as I know to make back anything from F1.

Who would rent an untested Porsche engine? Even Honda looks better than a completely untried power plant.
Well it can't be worse than the Honda. Even if it blows up a lot, uses too much fuel and is underpowered, it's still equal with the Honda.
Akrapovic is online now  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 16:34 (Ref:3758643)   #8182
mariantic
Racer
 
mariantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Scotland
Scotland
Posts: 366
mariantic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmariantic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Well it can't be worse than the Honda. Even if it blows up a lot, uses too much fuel and is underpowered, it's still equal with the Honda.
Don't forget the 1991 Footwork Arrows Porsche engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsch...rt#Formula_One
One of the worst ever...

At the time (I had mates at Arrows) everyone was stunned by how bad it was.

Mariantic
mariantic is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 19:58 (Ref:3758673)   #8183
deggis
Veteran
 
deggis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Finland
Posts: 6,206
deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brake dust View Post
In terms of sponsorship in F1, why is it that the most of the cars have no sponsorship on their cars? Seems strange.
Ferrari - still Philip Morris/Marlboro, Mercedes - Petronas is the title sponsor, Red Bull - TAG Heuer, Williams - Martini.

Renault seems to have gone through the WEC-like "brand colors & identity" way and currently lacks a big sponsor.

Quote:
I believe Porsche will only supply engines - a revenue generator for the company with some Porsche logos on the cars. With the limits on testing in F1 - too big of a risk for Porsche to be a back marker on an international stage while they try to develop their car.
With current regulations and yearly price of the engines for customers, this is absolutely impossible. 2021 engines will be cheaper but 2-3 customer teams probably won't ever cover the development costs.
deggis is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 20:15 (Ref:3758676)   #8184
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,215
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by deggis View Post
Ferrari - still Philip Morris/Marlboro, Mercedes - Petronas is the title sponsor, Red Bull - TAG Heuer, Williams - Martini.

Renault seems to have gone through the WEC-like "brand colors & identity" way and currently lacks a big sponsor.


With current regulations and yearly price of the engines for customers, this is absolutely impossible. 2021 engines will be cheaper but 2-3 customer teams probably won't ever cover the development costs.
I'd argue Red Bull is the sponsor there with Tag-Heuer on as an associate and engine branding sponsor.

Renault has had that problem a while, the ING Renault was the last external sponsor I remember, Geneii were the owners, then Lotus (sister company branding in JPS colors) and back to Renault.
broadrun96 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Aug 2017, 20:31 (Ref:3758678)   #8185
deggis
Veteran
 
deggis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Finland
Posts: 6,206
deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
I'd argue Red Bull is the sponsor there with Tag-Heuer on as an associate and engine branding sponsor.
Question was here about external sponsors. Red Bull is also the owner of the team(s). If it is the sponsor, then in the same way you could say Renault is the main sponsor of Renault F1 Team etc...
deggis is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Aug 2017, 08:22 (Ref:3759896)   #8186
Spyderman
Veteran
 
Spyderman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Mozambique
Mozambique
Posts: 4,642
Spyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Interview, Michael Steiner, Member of the Executive Board Research and Development at Porsche

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/moto...ent-14059.html
Spyderman is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Aug 2017, 18:36 (Ref:3760010)   #8187
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 15,377
TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!
Buncha pr driven questions and answers imo. Much like their decision to go to F-E. I don't think f1 is on the table. And then the answer about the wec's visibility is confusing too. F-E has an even worse viewership and attendance problem
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 04:03 (Ref:3761071)   #8188
carbsmith
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...-costs-943475/

I just have to keep shaking my head. VW Group companies pretty much direct the regulations in their current direction then decide to collectively spend a few hundred million dollars a year to race against each other when their Japanese competitors were looking at 8 figure budgets then complain it's too expensive. How can anyone believe the financial complaints of anyone that was spending five times what was necessary?
carbsmith is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 05:15 (Ref:3761075)   #8189
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 8,827
chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
It's called trying to win. Not to mention, as I've said many times previously, you have to factor in the ERS incentive (which Toyota benefited from as much as anyone, especially in '14 and this year/late last year) as well as the fact that these rules were originally supposed to expire at the end of last season. Trying to get to 8mj in three years time (Porsche did it in one) when Audi and TMG were barely pulling 3.5MJ in 2013 (while spending significantly less money than Audi Sport were in '14-16 and TMG the past couple of years) IMO says a lot.

Mind you, without dieselgate, VAG would have at least Audi or Porsche there right now. This is all driven by public relations/saving face/court of public opinion, even when they're still making huge profits even while setting lawsuits, present and future. Technical overkill? Absolutely? Driven by instant gratification? Absolutely. But the ACO provided the conditions for it to happen because they rode that instant gratification train as much or more than anyone else.
chernaudi is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 06:19 (Ref:3761081)   #8190
carbsmith
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!
Spending to win? Against who? THEMSELVES.

Toyota had a sustainable plan and originally planned to use the TS040 for all 3 years before the update to the regulations. It was completely obsolete after one from Porsche and Audi trying to outspend each other and they had to delay the regulation change for a year so Toyota could afford to introduce their new powertrain early. As early as 2015 Toyota was asking for development restrictions to control cost and they had to jack up their budget just to stay in the game for 2016. Even the TS050 wasn't that competitive at most tracks, how much do you think they really needed to spend to beat Toyota for those three years?

No one should ever be outspending Toyota in the same series, let alone multiple times over.
carbsmith is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 08:12 (Ref:3761104)   #8191
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 8,827
chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
Blame VAG all you want. At least they were winning stuff. Toyota outspent everyone in F1 and have barely anything to show for it.

Why not make the same argument about Mercedes-Benz in F1? They're using the same tactic.

And again, it was due to instant gratification and the tech regs lasting only 3 years before a major overhaul.
chernaudi is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 17:01 (Ref:3761226)   #8192
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 15,377
TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
Blame VAG all you want. At least they were winning stuff. Toyota outspent everyone in F1 and have barely anything to show for it.

Why not make the same argument about Mercedes-Benz in F1? They're using the same tactic.

And again, it was due to instant gratification and the tech regs lasting only 3 years before a major overhaul.
McLaren (Mercedes), Ferrari, BMW (Sauber), Honda and Toyota were all spending around $300 million a year. Toyota was building up TMG into what it is today, and a lot of the money came from the parent company. But what lots ignore is that the budgets include sponsorship, prize money and engine deals. In order to compete with the senior teams like McLaren and Ferrari, others like Honda and Toyota had to spend a lot of money because they didn't get as much prize money or historical payments like those two did. Ferrari got something over $50 million per year just because they're a historical team. McLaren receive around $35-40 million; just for showing up.

Why are you defending VW about this? The wec isn't F1 and Toyota have a responsible budget compared to them. They drove out competition with their huge budgets. It wasn't the ers incentive. Anyone can prop up a big battery, but not anyone can make a car that can compete against two teams with hundreds of millions of dollars of budget per year.
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 17:34 (Ref:3761231)   #8193
carbsmith
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!
Mercedes is spending similar amounts to other teams to beat Ferrari, Red Bull, and McLaren. Not running both a Mercedes and Daimler team each with twice the budget of the next competitor.
carbsmith is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 18:21 (Ref:3761238)   #8194
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 8,827
chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
Whatever, there was no complaining about this back in LMP900 when Audi Sport were spending $75 million a year to win LM and $10-15 million to do ALMS a season. I don't see anyone defending Cadillac who's program back then was a mismanaged waste of money, time and energy with little to show for it.

And everyone gushes about Group C and IMSA GTP, yet you had in IMSA GTP Toyota and Nissan spending $25 million a year. That's equal to about 100 million today. That almost bankrupted the sport, and we also know that Toyota spent $75-100 million on the GT-One project that never won any of the three races it did. Where's the defense of what Toyota did.

Again, whatever, at least Audi Sport and Porsche have something to show for their spending. Racing is the biggest pay-to-play sport there is. Why don't we see Pescarolo out there anymore? Because most privateer teams started to outspend him by a significant margin, let alone the factory teams.

And I do feel that people who like to back up Porsche and Toyota--the two who benefited the most from the ERS incentive and the loosened up aero and engine rules--are missing the bigger picture.

The 2014 rules were a disaster waiting to happen. They did encourage teams to built new cars every season. They pushed for the "go big or go home" mentality. Three years also isn't enough time to get a worthwhile customer car program going, especially with such expenses and the factory teams wanting to do their own things.

Why the rapid expenditure of money? I'll say it again: instant gratification. When you have marginal stuff wide open (like the front floors) but close off other areas (active aero, blown diffusers, pushing everyone to go the big hybrid/small engine route), teams will spend big money on small things.

Just look at NASCAR. The gap from front to back is relatively small, but the bigger teams still dominate because they have the money and resources to exploit small, marginal performance gains. It's the law of diminishing returns.

But as I mentioned, racing is the biggest case of "pay to play" in sports. You don't see pro basketball, football, soccer and baseball players bringing money to get them on a team. You don't see teams dump millions of dollars on a mechanical device to make it a few tenths of a second faster in the stick and ball world.

Yes, cost should be controlled. But for that to happen, sacrifices will probably have to be made. One of which will probably be the big hybrid systems. Another will probably be some of the marginal, small, but expensive aero stuff.

Also look at the Perrin program that's gone bust. It seems that program needed money--and lots of it--to get going. Is that the message we want to send?

I know that sounds contradictory, but I refuse to blame car makers for spending what they feel like spending on racing. Racing is pay to play, no getting around that.

I seriously want to know what the fans really want: Do they want unlimited technology, or close racing? High tech can put on good racing, but you don't need high tech to have good racing.

But if you want high tech, someone's gotta pay for it. Even TMG's current WEC budget is probably a lot more than what Mazda spend on their entire motorsports programs worldwide.

As for the defense of Toyota doing things on a smaller budget, I'll say this: If Toyota didn't go hog wild on F1, TMG might not be able to save money by doing things in house. They build everything but the engine and parts of the hybrid system (which come from Japan) and the gearbox internals (sourced from XTrac) for the TS050. But they probably couldn't do that if they didn't have F1 level facilities (and if TMC/Toyota Group didn't own so many automotive companies).

Audi Sport and even Porsche outsource chassis and component building. That cost time, energy and money. Also, how much of their motorsports budget is spent on the cars and racing, and how much is spent on advertising and other events. We all know that Audi and Porsche's hospitality and VIP areas were much larger than Toyota's. Were Audi and Porsche price gouging their own companies on that stuff?
chernaudi is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2017, 21:20 (Ref:3761265)   #8195
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 15,377
TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!
Toyota could probably build their car in Japan if they wanted to, but logistics means TMG is a better bet. Most all the sponsors/companies that Toyota have are their owned suppliers. That might contribute a lot to their lower bubdget, not just that they have TMG to do everything. Still, spending twice what they do on each team is not logical or sustainable for good competition. VW didn't have an issue with the spending until this dieselgate debacle happened. Now you see them trying to preach about F1 spending too much
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2017, 00:03 (Ref:3761287)   #8196
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 8,827
chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
And I didn't see Toyota complain about the cost in F1 until the economy tanked in '09. And that was just before the whole gas pedal debacle. Just pointing that out, and just as to be fair, I feel it wasn't Toyota's fault, though I believe they got hammered with fines and lawsuits worse than GM did for their ignition switch tomfoolery, which was pretty intentional on GM's part.

And of course, even being semi-nationalized didn't hurt GM's programs in NASCAR Cup and GT racing.

And I think we all know that sooner or later, at least one VAG marque would've gone and done something else anyways. Until TMG/Toyota stepped up to the plate this year with a redeveoped car, it was often them racing themselves with Toyota on an island of their own. Aside from being the right place at the right time in '14 and getting better in '16, that was often Toyota's fate, especially when the advances that Audi and Porsche made caught them out.

Which is pretty much what happens when you hire F1 aero guys and focus on small aero bits and hybrid systems. And even that stuff, though expensive, isn't the killer. It's the R&D that goes into it. And to get someplace fast, it takes resources and money when it's felt that time isn't a commodity.

We have to remember that Audi Sport rebodied the R18 in 2015 three times, and Porsche built a whole new car for that year. Toyota tried to evolve their 2014 car, and were quickly in trouble for lack of speed. That's what happens when you allow F1 levels of development. For which the ACO almost certainly has to bear most of the blame on that standpoint.

It used to be that incremental change was the dominant development philosophy. Now it's felt that if you're off the pace, you might as well throw out the baby with the bath water. That mentality--fostered by the desire to achieve results quickly no matter the cost and having a sanctioning body that not just allowed but also if anything encouraged it--is what imperiled everything in reality, along with the fact that factory teams are at the mercy of their company's bean counters and accountants, and marketing people, too.

And in today's world, if a $75+million dollar car is slower than a $200 million dollar one, that $75 million dollar car is just about useless to an OEM unless they can make it faster, which almost certainly will boost costs, too.
chernaudi is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2017, 11:10 (Ref:3761344)   #8197
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,215
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
Audi Sport and even Porsche outsource chassis and component building. That cost time, energy and money. Also, how much of their motorsports budget is spent on the cars and racing, and how much is spent on advertising and other events. We all know that Audi and Porsche's hospitality and VIP areas were much larger than Toyota's. Were Audi and Porsche price gouging their own companies on that stuff?
If it really cost more VAG would have brought that in house in a SECOND. It cost less for them in all 3 as they had a partner who could build and likely help develop those parts that weren't cost efficient in house. And allow them to pick the minds of those with experience in that field.

The rest of your post was a rambling nonsensical rant that seemed to say it's all money's fault and we should ban money cause teams don't know what's best for themselves. How is now ANY different than any of the times you've mentioned. Every time there was a lull, new regs made a peak and boom, then the oh crap, this is expensive moment and boom. Going back to the beginning of one of those eras only is beyond pointless. It's the equivalent of the teenager asking why aren't we all communist, look how great it is (on paper). It doesn't last and neither did Can-Am, Camel GT, WSC, LMP900, LMP1, LMP1H. Things change and that's probably the ONLY way privateers get to stick around or build a team.
broadrun96 is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2017, 13:53 (Ref:3761375)   #8198
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 8,827
chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
Since you brought it up, would you want DPI to become the new LMP1? Even though it's basically the prototype form or racing socialism? If you get too fast, you get pegged back or your competitors get sped up to your level though performance balancing. Granted, modern day LMP1 was the exact opposite if anything, being basically racing Darwinism.

There wasn't this stuff (racing socialism/heavy BOP) going on in LMP900 when the R8s won almost everything in sight, or when Toyota had the fastest car by far at LM in '99.

There's room for compromise, but if one could only chose one or the other, would you rather have the micromanaged BOP and artificial equality of DPI, or current day LMP1 where it's a spending and technology war that goes on until OEMs decide to call time on their participation?

Ideal solution from the beginning was a formula that allowed for, but didn't incentivize, technology on such a scale, and was friendlier to privateer teams. Other than Kolles, we can only confirm SMP as a privateer LMP1 entry next year. Perrin has gone nowhere and there's still sales to be confirmed for the new Ginetta.

The ACO are now getting bitten by the owner of the hand that fed them. Usually that saying's the other way around, but not here. They gambled on pandering to OEMs, knowing what could happen when the bubble burst.

And the reason for that is the same reason why Volkswagen cheated the diesel regs in the US: greed. Greed, and wanting things now and the hell with the longer term consequences. At least for VAG, they're pretty much able to "buy" their way out of things by paying off lawsuits and claims, and still remain profitable.

The ACO don't have that luxury now. They became so dependent on OEMs that it's like a drug addict who's trying to quit cold turkey. They should've remembered that though factory money's nice, it rarely lasts as long as it ultimately did. And that factory participation is at the whims of corporate boards, accountants, and marketing departments.
chernaudi is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2017, 15:58 (Ref:3761388)   #8199
Maelochs
Veteran
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,434
Maelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMaelochs will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Mr. Chernaudi hits a lot of high points.

Just more sports car stuff ... same cycle, different series.

No need to "blame" anyone. obviously FIA screwed up ... or maybe just gambled and lost ... but pretty certainly this would have happened anyway, sooner or later. VAG got caught cheating or they would probably have at least one team in there. Not sure how long Toyota's corporate offices would tolerate near-misses at Le Mans. New manufacturers though, if they saw a vacuum, might try to get in cheap.

Nothing new to see here, folks.

DPi obviously would have to give up its BoP reliance to work on a global scale. But i wouldn't expect a Lot of crossover anyway ... the biggest advantage of including DPi in a P1-L class would be financial, for the manufacturers. Customer cars is a good business and can help to keep a formula living a little longer.

FIA will need to give up its annual or biennial rules changes, or any regs which encourage such ... teams need probably five years to develop and market a platform. FIA seems to love making new rules ... part of what hurt ALMS, and things certainly haven't gotten better.

FIA also need to give up it "super-hi-tec" attachment. Fans Really want a lot of cars and good racing. I don't think a lot of extra tickets sold because some of the cars were hybrid ... I don't see where attendance jumped sharply in the hybrid era ... basically race fans like racing, and so long as Something is circling the track, they want to watch.

But, big sums of money and big egos conspire to drive away common sense and prevent learning from experience ... which is why this year's events are just the latest around of sport-car series collapses we have been seeing for several decades. Pretty sure it isn't the last, either.
Maelochs is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2017, 16:18 (Ref:3761392)   #8200
bobec
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 363
bobec should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridbobec should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
Spending to win? Against who? THEMSELVES.

Toyota had a sustainable plan and originally planned to use the TS040 for all 3 years before the update to the regulations. It was completely obsolete after one from Porsche and Audi trying to outspend each other and they had to delay the regulation change for a year so Toyota could afford to introduce their new powertrain early. As early as 2015 Toyota was asking for development restrictions to control cost and they had to jack up their budget just to stay in the game for 2016. Even the TS050 wasn't that competitive at most tracks, how much do you think they really needed to spend to beat Toyota for those three years?

No one should ever be outspending Toyota in the same series, let alone multiple times over.

Again, how does the fact that TMG have their own wind tunnel reflect on their costs when compared to teams that have to pay to get access to a wind tunnel? It's more than clear that Audi were spending very big money on aero development, and that was because they had nothing else to work with, because of the regulations which "they directed"....
bobec is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are there any differnces between a Porsche carerra cup Porsche and GT3 class Porsche? SALEEN S7R Sportscar & GT Racing 25 6 Feb 2008 21:06
New Porsche prototype (merged threads) BSchneiderFan Sportscar & GT Racing 265 5 Sep 2006 11:29
What is the differnce between the Porsche 996 and Porsche 911 GT3'rs? SALEEN S7R Sportscar & GT Racing 12 28 Mar 2003 11:36
Joest Porsche VS Factory Porsche H16 Sportscar & GT Racing 10 20 Dec 2001 14:07


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.