Flash Nilsson's views on touring car racing

[Aunt Sally]

I hav just seen this on TcT http://www.touringcartimes.com/columns.php?id=2

If 'Flash' feels like this.. Why does he race in touring cars?

His description for S2000 cars "Slow, uninteresting cars".

Perhaps he should go GT racing!

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Aunt Sally

I hav just seen this on TcT http://www.touringcartimes.com/columns.php?id=2

If 'Flash' feels like this.. Why does he race in touring cars?

His description for S2000 cars "Slow, uninteresting cars".

Perhaps he should go GT racing!

I agree with him, if the new DTM rules for 2009 is good, and they get one or two more manufacturers at the same time, STCC really should pick up that set of regs for 2010 and Volvo would most likely build a car too! By that time S2000 will have been around for almost 10 years and its time to move on. I wont be sad to see S2000 go, only very happy to see DTM cars race in Sweden!

[werner]

If flash was a woman, you'd say he's in his period when writing his collumn.

DTM is way to expensive for anything else than Germany or the WTCC. And S2000-cars are slow on GP-tracks, but not on the twisty tracks in the BTCC and in Sweden. In Germany the circuits are a bit bigger, so they need bigger and faster cars to look quik.
WTCC-sees that aswell, and they use more and more small circuits (Pau for Magny-cours, Oshersleben in Germany, Valencia in Spain.

[duke_toaster]

I want to know what Flash is smoking.

If he wants something faster than touring cars (proper touring cars, not LMPs like the DTM) go and do single seaters or something. S2000 is great, the BTCC is an excellently run series (which venue was he thinking of, some are long in the tooth but Thruxton isn't bad).

Touring cars are NOT supposed to be the fastest things in a straight line - if there to be DTM spec cars in the UK, almost no tracks would be licenced to run them.

S2000 needs a few changes (a non-spec but closely controlled gearbox system, possibly a move to more BTC-T style suspension as the current setup is rather flimsy, and possibly replacing the 4 door rule with something a little fairer, maybe a little bit of an extra weight penalty for diesels) but all sets of technical regulations a few tweaks during their lifespan.

[redshoes]

I've never got the whole DTM thing. They might be fast and noisy but where's the close racing, where's the overtaking. Add to that the inevitable team orders and inter-team politics. It's like F1 - the 'excitement' comes from the characters, teams and off-track politics not what happens on tract.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I've never got the whole DTM thing. They might be fast and noisy but where's the close racing, where's the overtaking. Add to that the inevitable team orders and inter-team politics. It's like F1 - the 'excitement' comes from the characters, teams and off-track politics not what happens on tract.

Exactly my thoughts. DTM wants to be to much like F1 and sadly, they look like F1.

I don't agree completely with Flash. Maybe the teams and drivers outside the top 10 in BTCC are not that good, but there is no such close racing like there is in BTCC. I haven't seen all the STCC races yet, but from what I've seen it's not as close as BTCC.

[Mr Pink]

I agree to some extent with Flash. For me it doesn´t matter if a S2000 race has ten overtakings per lap because I know that the rules has been bent in order to help teams with cars that aren´t fast enough, also it doesn´t help that the cars isn´t spectacular in any way.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I've never got the whole DTM thing. They might be fast and noisy but where's the close racing, where's the overtaking. Add to that the inevitable team orders and inter-team politics.

It's almost as if they are going to a V8 Supercars-esque WWE style "Audi versus Mercedes" promotion. Which will fall flat on its face when one of them pulls out.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

It's almost as if they are going to a V8 Supercars-esque WWE style "Audi versus Mercedes" promotion. Which will fall flat on its face when one of them pulls out.

In an article Rene de Boer (a Dutch journalists, also member of this forum) wrote that there are even people in DTM that hate the competitor (Audi vs. Merc). I think that could mean this scenario could happen sooner than we think.

I think Flash is right to say team orders and boycotts are scandals that lower the credibility of the dtm each year. And when they continue like this, the DTM is doomed to fail. Let's hope it survives another year like this and they understand they have to change big time in 2009.

[JMeissner]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

I agree to some extent with Flash. For me it doesn´t matter if a S2000 race has ten overtakings per lap because I know that the rules has been bent in order to help teams with cars that aren´t fast enough, also it doesn´t help that the cars isn´t spectacular in any way.

Spot on.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

I think Flash is right to say team orders and boycotts are scandals that lower the credibility of the dtm each year.

Absolutely. We all know team orders are a fact of life at this level but it doesn't stop it leaving a bad taste in the mouth every time we see it. When it happens as often and as blatantly as it has this year it feels like the teams are treating spectators like idiots who won't notice.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Absolutely. We all know team orders are a fact of life at this level but it doesn't stop it leaving a bad taste in the mouth every time we see it. When it happens as often and as blatantly as it has this year it feels like the teams are treating spectators like idiots who won't notice.

So what's the biggest problem? That teams in DTM consist of 10 cars, making it easier to have team orders, or is it not having pit windows, so old cars can stay out to be get in the way of new cars?

[JMeissner]

The biggest problem for DTM is that they have rules that only attracts Mercedes and Audi.

[Ellmau]

Yeah, but what is it in the rules that only attracts Merc and Audi? It can't be just the costs.

[JMeissner]

A combination of cost and that it would take very long time for a new manufacturer to get competetive since Audi and Mercedes have been in this for so long.

And as for the current situation with strong indications of new rules in 2009, I doubt that any one would be attracted for 2008.

[Ellmau]

I'm sure there won't be one attracted for 2008. But if they change the rules for 2009 big time, they might get some more manufacturers, because they would all have to start from scratch.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

better for Jan Nilsson go to sports car racing, driving a GT or a small P2 car, ther he will find much quiker cars tahn S2000 !

yes this TC are somehow a little bit slow, but who cares, the races are very close and fantastic,

"The BTCC is a terrible championship with poor cars" !!!! first time to hear that, I prefer watching BTCC over another TC series with only 2 constructors and a lot of team orders !

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

better for Jan Nilsson go to sports car racing, driving a GT or a small P2 car, ther he will find much quiker cars tahn S2000 !

yes this TC are somehow a little bit slow, but who cares, the races are very close and fantastic,

I don't think races in WTCC are close. Sometimes they are, but most of the time they're not that close.

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

"The BTCC is a terrible championship with poor cars" !!!! first time to hear that, I prefer watching BTCC over another TC series with only 2 constructors and a lot of team orders !

I agree. But Flash is right that outside the top 10 in BTCC the drivers and teams aren't good enough, the state of the tracks is very poor and the facilities for the fans at the tracks are very poor.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

I agree. But Flash is right that outside the top 10 in BTCC the drivers and teams aren't good enough, the state of the tracks is very poor and the facilities for the fans at the tracks are very poor.

Whilst I can't comment about places like Knockhill or Croft, Thruxton certainly isn't "very poor". It's a little bit rough around the edges, but it's quite good, and I haven't heard the teams complain.

I predict that the DTM will implode by halfway through 08.

[Fechna]

I totally disagree with Nilson. I think (and I know that it might sound a bit arrogant) his view on the situation is very shallow. Jugding BTCC by the standard of the tracks (speakers...) or the fact that the boxes are quite small... rediciolous. Well in DTM you´ve got wooden- floors in the pit, but the racing is all ****. He totally overrates DTM, just because he is unhappy with the S2000 cars and dreams up more powerful cars. I watched the DTM since 2000, and there were only one year, that had really good racing, and that was 2002. All other years were bad, and the situation got even worse with the 4- door- saloons. And I don´t see a real explenation of him, why the WTCC is dying a slow death. It isn´t as great as the major Supertouring leagues were ten years ago, but he should tell one single series in touringcar racing worldwide, that atracts more manufacturers. These are the times. And no Silhouette- series will change that. There was one in Gemany some years ago. Remember V8Star. And where is it now? Nowhere. Like the plans for one in the UK. And abandoning S2000 for a silhouette racing in europe, would most likely mean an end to homogation based touringcar racing worldwide, as most of the other continents went already this way. I think that would be very sad.

[Robbe]

I think Nilsson is missing one important thing.

The racing itself.

I can agree with his criticism about WTCC bending rules, and slow cars. But when you watch the races, whooah (same with BTCC/STCC). And then you watch a DTM race and get disappointed, you have no close fights without collisions where the cars burst into millions of carbon parts.

And after having watched some STCC races: I don't want to be the marshal cleaning up the track after Janne Nilsson drove a DTM race :P

[JMeissner]

I can't really find the part in the column where you guys see Nilsson writing that the racing is excellent in the current DTM rules?

[redshoes]

Nilsson does have a bit of a point about facilities. Thruxton in particular isn't a modern state-of-the-art venue. The pit garages are barely big enough to put a car in, let alone work on it. The PA system, grandstands and paddock haven't been touched in years. You could make similar comments about several other circuits, notably Knockhill and Croft. However, and this is the important bit, that's down to the circuit owners, you can't blame the BTCC for that.

Only 30,000 spectators? That's sadly is the state of British motorsport these days. There's been times in recent years when an F3/GT meeting would be lucky to get a tenth of that figure. Aside from a few big events - F1, Goodwood, Renault World Series - you just don't get huge numbers any more. Is that down to cost, lack of facilities, the quality of the racing, too much else on TV? Who knows.

As for the quality of the driver, it true that we no longer have a grid full of international stars as we had in the 90s. Equally true that there's a large range of abilities, but that for me is not necessarily a bad thing. It means we get battles all down the field.

As far as S2000 rules go, they can and do work. The problems in the WTCC are more down to the constant rule adjustment that the original formula. BTCC and STCC are able to run S2000 regs without the rule breaks and often produce better racing as a result.

[Robbe]

Correct, JMeissner, he doesn't say that.

But he's judging the series without even talking about the racing itself.

He calls the DTM the most important and prestigeous series in Europe, but why? Not because of the politics, because WTCC and DTM both have too much politics. Not because of the cars, because they are too expensive. Not because of the manufacturer involvement, because there are only 2. Not because of the racing, because he doesn't even mention racing.

Looking at his summary

Originally Posted by Flash Nilsson

Summary
- The DTM is a fantastic championship, but with too expensive cars.

What makes the DTM so fantastic then?

[duke_toaster]

Whilst the BTCC isn't full of international big guns, it isn't short of talent.

We have had six drivers win races this year (in for all intents and purposes 4 different car models), two more came close to winning races (one of which was running a partial season), a number of talented drivers who were let down by machinery (Mat Allison).

And only 6 drivers failing to score a single point, most of them weren't running a full season due to Brands T1 and some of them only did one or two weekends.

There's no lack of talent in the BTCC, and with Andrew Jordan waiting in the wings ...

What would actually help the BTCC is a form of US-style TV blackout but I doubt that would happen ...