[WEC] 2015 WEC Discussion

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

it could be, but as shown by luxury racing in 2012 and ram racing this year, to enter in WEC pro class as private team without any real factory support is just a suicide.

Very different circumstances with those two examples

[Purist]

For Fuji, Austin, Shanghai, and Bahrain, the 32-car thing may not be such an issue. However, I think they ought to have a separate thing set up for the European half of the season, with a 36 or 40-car cap. Some option like that for Silverstone, Spa, Le Mans, and Nurburgring, with reduced entry rate over doing it race-by-race, should at least be considered.

[morningview66]

I guess my list was very vague on a few entries.

I fully dont expect some teams to go for a full season entry a few are on there because they may turn up at more races than just Le Mans.
e.g. Corvette, Krohn, OAK Asia etc

And the extra AF Corse and Aston cars, not because i have heard any news they will be running this many cars. Just because they can if they have the customers.

[Hawkwood]

A slightly OT question here.

Are privateers allowed to buy an LMP1 from a factory team and tun it themselves?
I remember Oreca-Matmut ran a Peugeot a few years back (won a race or two IIRC), but I wondered if this is still in the rules?

With Porsche having a complete re-design for 2015 they'll obviously have their 2014 cars sitting in a warehouse, so would someone be able to buy and run them?

Maybe could be a way for Toyota to have a third car if the team's budget still constrains them to two.

[Rodger Davies]

Nothing against it in the rules, but in practice it hasn't happened for a long time. Both Oreca and Pescarolo's Peugeots were factory-leased, likely at a fairly favourable rate (but not including insurance!), so Kolles' Audi R10s were the last truly privateer effort, although who knows how independent they really were?

None of the current factory programmes seem to have either interest or inclination to selling/leasing cars, but I doubt there are many privateers out there able to afford and run them either.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

A slightly OT question here.

Are privateers allowed to buy an LMP1 from a factory team and tun it themselves?
I remember Oreca-Matmut ran a Peugeot a few years back (won a race or two IIRC), but I wondered if this is still in the rules?

With Porsche having a complete re-design for 2015 they'll obviously have their 2014 cars sitting in a warehouse, so would someone be able to buy and run them?

Maybe could be a way for Toyota to have a third car if the team's budget still constrains them to two.

I guess it is possible, but honestly there isn't any real private team in the world that has the enough budget and enough know how to run an hybrid work lmp1. Oreca used the 908HDi, but in 2010-2011 it wasn't a "real" private team... they were officially supported by peugeot with drivers and engineers.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

One point of clarification ref the hospitality part. I understand your point but look at it from a different perspective.

Hospitality is crucially important to teams, manufacturers, drivers and sponsors - This is how they can introduce new customers and others to racing.

Hi Graham, you are of course completely right on this point but it's very hard to accept. I was trying to think up a riposte that says why we fans that sleep in uncomfortable places, drive long distances and pay to get in to circuits to watch still matter more, but the sad fact is that we don't.

With some events that's not the case, and I'm thinking of Le Mans, the N24, Spa 24, where there's still a large paying crowd and a great atmosphere as a result, but the majority of series these days are either gentlemen drivers funding the series that is run for their enjoyment or manufacturers entertaining sponsors in a self-congratulatory loop (to quote Stewart Lee).

I think that's why I've started to drift away towards rallying with my travels this year, rather than attend races like WEC at Silverstone, where I feel more like an inconvenience than an asset to the series. I'm probably a little biased by Silverstone, which is likely the worst of all places for making the 'average' fan feel utterly pointless though, and I'm not sure that I'll even travel there for my usual annual BES visit next year.

Sorry, not much sense to the above ramble, but had to get it out!

[morningview66]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

A slightly OT question here.

Are privateers allowed to buy an LMP1 from a factory team and tun it themselves?
I remember Oreca-Matmut ran a Peugeot a few years back (won a race or two IIRC), but I wondered if this is still in the rules?

With Porsche having a complete re-design for 2015 they'll obviously have their 2014 cars sitting in a warehouse, so would someone be able to buy and run them?

Maybe could be a way for Toyota to have a third car if the team's budget still constrains them to two.

I thinks its literally just down to the complexity of technology in these hybrid machines of today.

You would need some seriously skilled engineers and a serious budget, i guess it would be possible but probably only with some kind of factory support, factory loaned engineers etc..

[Purist]

I have the reason, Rodger. At least for WEC, would the series exist without Le Mans? And as you just said, Le Mans is one of the events where we do matter.

Aside from that, a Grade 1 circuit isn't necessary to do all that.

Anyway, why would you want to spend your weekend in yet another formalized, sanitized setting after a week of the office, board meetings, and travel by car/business jet?

(And if some of them really are so insistent on being coddled by the plush surroundings, continuous air-conditioning, and sequestration from the riff-raff, why do they even travel to any event at all? They could just never leave their place in Malibu to get all that, and have none of the extra hassles.)

[Rodger Davies]

Because a lot of the people attending are not Malibu-lifestylers, they're people attending as their one invite of the year.

They're employees of companies sponsoring cars, they're the local dealers for the manufacturers or their sales staff, they're motoring journalists on a day off etc.

Sure, there are some that wouldn't mix with the great unwashed and for whom the event is an inconvenience from the golf course, but lots more don't fulfill that description.

[Purist]

My point is though, the sort of environment presented by these new-build F1 circuits IS for exactly those who DON'T seem to want to associate with the great unwashed masses, and all those gleaming facilities are for ONLY their benefit.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

As someone who has been very fortunate to have been invited to hospitality suites at Le Mans, COTA, Sebring, Road Atlanta, etc. I can tell you that the small percentage of people present in that environment are the types that people here are claiming are the majority. Most all of the people that I have seen in my hospitality stays are there because they do thoroughly enjoy the product and are there to experience more than just the cushy hospitality area. No better example than the fact that on many occasions the suites are devoid of many of the patrons except during meal times. On most occasions the lucky few are mixing it up in the paddock, on the grid walk, and at the vendor areas along with the regular folks. There are however lots of women and children left in the suites while dad goes looking about. I've met hardcore fans trudging around in the mud and getting gravel in their shoes, I've also met hardcore fans enjoying air conditioning and open bars.

I don't think it's fair to label people lucky enough to be hospitality patrons as aloof. Many of them are people like me, those who are either lucky enough to be an average Joe (yours truly) and have the lucky connections, or even those who are passionate enough to spend their own money to enjoy it.

Last year at Le Mans I met a few groups of people in Michelin hospitality who had paid their own money to enjoy the view from that side of the fence. Just regular people who decided they wanted to save up and make that their big entertainment experience for the year. (Yes, you can pay your way in, even if you're not a regular).

[isynge]

Given that most of us are more than capable of seeing the WEC 'warts and all' and can be pretty forthright in where we see shortcomings, I was struck by this comment by Robin Hill from ESM on their Shanghai experience to date

The WEC has been so helpful and professional – it’s been a real breath of fresh air for the whole team.

Obviously he's going to have chosen his words carefully, but it's an indicator that the WEC is at least doing one or two things right, and a positive indicator that we might see ESM again in 2015.

Full story over at Sportscar365.

[Deleted]

Then again when one is accustomed to USCC 'officiliating' and general incompetence of handling things, pretty much anything different is gonna feel like ecstasy. They could be running in the Canadian Touring Car Championship and saying the same thing

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Then again when one is accustomed to USCC 'officiliating' and general incompetence of handling things, pretty much anything different is gonna feel like ecstasy. They could be running in the Canadian Touring Car Championship and saying the same thing

That's how I read it as well. The WEC wants them to be there and is helping them how they can. Whether or not it was a dig at the IMSA folks I don't know, but it could be perceived that way!

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by joeb

That's how I read it as well. The WEC wants them to be there and is helping them how they can. Whether or not it was a dig at the IMSA folks I don't know, but it could be perceived that way!

The guys at Extreme Speed Motorsports aren't stupid, and without a shadow of a doubt, I can say that they would realize beforehand that it could be perceived as a stab at IMSA, and therefore I think it is. Very underhanded, and very crafty, but a stab nonetheless.

It doesn't really matter much to me. I just want to see two neon green and black HPD ARX-04b's at Le Mans in 2015!

To add to that, their performance at Shanghai with two cars will really factor into their overall decision. Obviously, they were right on pace in Austin, but it will be interesting to see if they can carry that over into China. My gut says yes, which means that they'll be pretty happy now about the LMP2 BoP.

[Maelochs]

"The WEC has been so helpful and professional – it’s been a real breath of fresh air for the whole team.”

Yeah, I'd say that is a dig at TUSC.

"Also you can’t benefit from repeated yellows as you can in the TUDOR series because the level of driving is higher and more consistent and there aren’t as many. It’s more about using your drivers well and making the cars go faster and that’s what racing should be."

[Deleted]

To be fair, if USCC was run on such forgiving asphalt fields as WEC their caution percentage would likely be 75% less than now, AND we have to remember the North American way of handling insurance for marshals if the track is not yellow etc. But of course in any case LMPCs would still ram into everybody and race control throw out phantom cautions

[Purist]

I think TUSCC would have to do more than just run on Tilkedromes to get such a drastic drop in caution periods.

1. Having 3.5 classes in which the cars almost can't pass each other on the straights doesn't help.
2. The officiating needs to serve as an actual deterrent to poor driving.
3. Some teams need to more effectively discipline their drivers, and that isn't just specifically a matter of punishment after they've already had a foul-up.

Also, amusingly, and unfortunately, a number of incidents this season happened on or were facilitated by paved run-offs and verges. At least two of the incidents at Sebring occurred so easily because the drivers could just pull right back out on course. Alex Tagliani could not have caused that mess in practice at Watkins Glen if he had gone into a gravel trap. Maybe, Memo Rojas would have exercised a bit more caution on his warm-up lap at Mosport had the outside of Turn 2 not been paved.

Anyway, I'm glad the ESM guys seem to be having a good time of it so far; I wish TUSCC was perceived as being so welcoming.

[ger80]

Don't we have a race thread for this weekend?

[Deleted]

Fair points Purist, and in fact I've too argued (in the case of Le Mans) that having more asphalt runoff in such high speed environment only increases the risk of something serious happening as the drivers are blasting through the corners and traffic with no care at all.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by ger80

Don't we have a race thread for this weekend?

We do now:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142951

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Fair points Purist, and in fact I've too argued (in the case of Le Mans) that having more asphalt runoff in such high speed environment only increases the risk of something serious happening as the drivers are blasting through the corners and traffic with no care at all.

I dont buy that theory. They take more chances in the turns because the power has been sucked out of their cars. Lots of people say reduce the cornering speeds. Why? If they do that, then they would be even more dangerous trying to pass slower traffic.

[Coach Ep]

more P2 news: http://www.racer.com/latest-stories/...on-to-two-cars

[rich07]

Alex Premat is indicating that he might be in the series next year as he's talking about a possible clash with a round and Bathurst 1000.