Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[GasperG]

Don't forget that out of the corner there is only little ERS energy available, let's say 1 MJ. That 1 MJ will power with 1500 HP, for how long?

0.28 kW*h / 1100 kW = 0.9 s.

[TME45]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Don't forget that out of the corner there is only little ERS energy available, let's say 1 MJ. That 1 MJ will power with 1500 HP, for how long?

0.28 kW*h / 1100 kW = 0.9 s.

how about 1000 or 800hp?

[vincegail]

1000: 1500/1000 x 0.9 seconds = 1.35 seconds
800: 1500/800 x 0.9 seconds = 1.68 seconds

[GT3.14]

The more I read the more I seem to think it is going to be very unkind to the front tyres.

[TME45]

Originally Posted by vincegail

1000: 1500/1000 x 0.9 seconds = 1.35 seconds
800: 1500/800 x 0.9 seconds = 1.68 seconds

that's y I said Nissan using ZEOD system

push the car out from Conner don't need full power, 450-550hp is enough.

maybe they use ZEOD system to shut down the engine when the brake hit, idling to in the curve, leave & speed up by electric RWD, change back to pure gas FWD power on straight?

the fuel flow they save in the curve make the engine allowed to make around 1000hp, & system support to higher power, around 1500hp without fuel flow limit?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by TME45

that's y I said Nissan using ZEOD system

push the car out from Conner don't need full power, 450-550hp is enough.

maybe they use ZEOD system to shut down the engine when the brake hit, idling to in the curve, leave & speed up by electric RWD, change back to pure gas FWD power on straight?

the fuel flow they save in the curve make the engine allowed to make around 1000hp, & system support to higher power, around 1500hp without fuel flow limit?

Mike or somebody said they are using flywheel storage, not battery. The slick thing about flywheel storage is it provides the best storage to weight ratio, suggesting they could do the 8MJ, and if they can do purely mechanical, they save the mechanical to electric and electric to mechanical conversion losses.

[TF110]

Theres no rule on a limit of harvesting energy, only how much you use. No rule that limits what axel you harvest from either iirc. Touring cars are fwd, they have no issue with tire wear. If Michelin are involved to a level like with the other teams, theyll make a bespoke construction for Nissan. You want all the power out of turns, thats how you make up time is through faster acceleration. The power level may be 2000hp. But at 8mj per lap, thats not going to last very long. If Toyota, for example, put out 500hp at '6mj class' for a total of 3 seconds per boost and use it 8 times, thats 24 seconds total hybrid boost per lap of 500hp.

If Nissan is 8mj then the power total allowed increases 33.3%. That would equal 667hp for the same amount of time. If they want "2000hp" total output, to reach that would be ~1400hp from the electric (hybrid) power based on a 600hp petrol engine. 1400hp is near 110% increase from the 667hp equation. So that would mean only 11.4 seconds per lap of boost if I calculated right. Of course thats just a guess based on how Toyota do it.

[J Jay]

The more read into this, the more it sounds like the spiritual successor to WM...

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Mike or somebody said they are using flywheel storage, not battery. The slick thing about flywheel storage is it provides the best storage to weight ratio, suggesting they could do the 8MJ, and if they can do purely mechanical, they save the mechanical to electric and electric to mechanical conversion losses.

It is indeed my understanding that the Flybrid technology as used in the past by Hope Racing or Dyson Racing does not involve conversion of the energy recovered upon braking into electric energy. Neither does the technology rely upon the use of any electrical machine for energy conversion. The system is integrated into the ICE's gearbox and energy is indeed stored and released in a purely mechanical way.

As a matter of fact, it would seem that such a system would combine the functions of Motor Generator Unit (MGU) and Energy Store (ES) in one unit.

In that respect, I am curious to understand which means of measurement will be used (and homologated) to measure the amount of energy that is released from the "MGU(s)".

[isynge]

Originally Posted by J Jay

The more read into this, the more it sounds like the spiritual successor to WM...

Let's just hope that the in car navigation system helps the driver turn the right way at Mulsanne then...

More seriously, for a year 1 effort to aim at some headline grabbing achievements (2000 bhp, fastest in a straight line) rather than a relatively conservative toe in the water could make the initial hours next June quite appealing - and let's face it, as neither approach is likely to yield a win, having something that makes for a talking point over beer and a barbecue on Saturday evening isn't something I'm going to object to.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by isynge

Let's just hope that the in car navigation system helps the driver turn the right way at Mulsanne then...

More seriously, for a year 1 effort to aim at some headline grabbing achievements (2000 bhp, fastest in a straight line) rather than a relatively conservative toe in the water could make the initial hours next June quite appealing - and let's face it, as neither approach is likely to yield a win, having something that makes for a talking point over beer and a barbecue on Saturday evening isn't something I'm going to object to.

It sound different and exciting, but imagine if this thing ends up being quite ordinary like the other P1s, after the crazy rumors we had. All of it sound so over the top, that it's hard to believe it's going to live up to the hype now.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by cokata

It sound different and exciting, but imagine if this thing ends up being quite ordinary like the other P1s, after the crazy rumors we had. All of it sound so over the top, that it's hard to believe it's going to live up to the hype now.

That is the danger isn't it? They've dropped hints (the whole 'bad boy' routine) and the likes of Mulsanne Mike don't generally make stuff up - but this does mean they've put some expectations to live up to out there.

How much of this is under their control? I don't know, but I can't help thinking some of the real bombshell material (e.g. the 2,000 bhp headline) would have been better kept under profound wraps and only deployed in a controlled way rather than letting it drip out like it has.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by isynge

That is the danger isn't it? They've dropped hints (the whole 'bad boy' routine) and the likes of Mulsanne Mike don't generally make stuff up - but this does mean they've put some expectations to live up to out there.

How much of this is under their control? I don't know, but I can't help thinking some of the real bombshell material (e.g. the 2,000 bhp headline) would have been better kept under profound wraps and only deployed in a controlled way rather than letting it drip out like it has.

Well i'm 99.9% sure that 2,000 hp rumor is bullshit. The only way to do that is if they have a 1000+bhp ICE engine and start coasting half way down the straights( maybe an engine start-stop system for better coasting performance?) With a more realistic ICE power, you would need ~1400bhp from the electric motors. And that would require a massive energy storage, the car would be grossly overweight.

And to cap it off even with AWD and decent downforce level putting this much power to the ground without spinning the wheels (and wasting fuel and electric charge in the process) is impossible unless the boost comes at over 200 kph.

[TF110]

Not impossible. These cars are allowed traction control remember, so some tricks would keep it in a straight line with that much power. Maybe its an even torque split 50:50 with 1000hp per axel The Group C cars got away with about that much power on the rear. Heres an interesting video from gtchannel with Daren Cox basically confirming the car will be in Gran Turismo.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by cokata

Well i'm 99.9% sure that 2,000 hp rumor is bullshit. The only way to do that is if they have a 1000+bhp ICE engine and start coasting half way down the straights( maybe an engine start-stop system for better coasting performance?) With a more realistic ICE power, you would need ~1400bhp from the electric motors. And that would require a massive energy storage, the car would be grossly overweight.

And to cap it off even with AWD and decent downforce level putting this much power to the ground without spinning the wheels (and wasting fuel and electric charge in the process) is impossible unless the boost comes at over 200 kph.

It all depends on how long you use the boost (which is tied partly to avoiding spinning the tires). Maybe it's only used for a second or so and used to get up to speed quickly after a corner. The faster you go, the more fuel you lose to drag, so if the car makes its time by getting up to speed quicker rather than a higher terminal velocity, that might be a very clever way to make a lap time.

As far as weight, rumors are they are taking the mechanical flywheel approach, which is the most weight-efficient way to go.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by isynge

... I can't help thinking some of the real bombshell material (e.g. the 2,000 bhp headline) would have been better kept under profound wraps and only deployed in a controlled way rather than letting it drip out like it has.

The rumors of 2,000 bhp doesn't drip!

[TME45]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Mike or somebody said they are using flywheel storage, not battery. The slick thing about flywheel storage is it provides the best storage to weight ratio, suggesting they could do the 8MJ, and if they can do purely mechanical, they save the mechanical to electric and electric to mechanical conversion losses.

ZEOD is talking about how to use the energy, not how to store the energy.

or I would say by normal language: thwy have a start stop system for curve

[flyingshoppingcart]

A few things I'd like to mention:

a.) we don't have know what total system power of 2000 HP actually means. As Mulsanne Mike mentioned, it's almost meaningless without context. Can all 2000 HP be used at once? Or is it an arbitrary figure for marketing reasons?

b.) Relating to the previous point, even if the power can be used all at once, it probably won't be utilized for more than a second or two. The demands on the tires will be great, and the electric energy discharge will be rapid no doubt. If the power can't be used at once, then what is the total power figure based on, and in what ratios and combinations can the gas engine and electric power be used then?

c.) Custom Michelins or not, if all the rumors are true, then the stress on the front tires will be HUGE. I predict a lot of tire problems for Nissan.

d.) Winning Le Mans is about much, much more than simply having the fastest car. It also has to be reliable. You also need luck, and tons of little details to worry about. How stable will the car be in disturbed air? How well will it overtake? How will it handle corners, and mixed weather? Also since it is likely Nissan won't be able to triple stint, or possibly even double stint tires, then how often will Nissan be pitting compared to the others?

e.) A very low drag car will be great in the straights at Le Mans, but corners could be a big struggle.

f.) This car sounds symbolically similar to Toyota's infamous GT-One/TS020. Obviously the two will be very different mechanically and in terms of overall development philosophy. Symbolically however, it seems Nissan went and built a radical, very fast car, with almost everything else be damned. This is similar to Toyota back in the late 90s. They at the time went and built a radically fast car, most other details be damned. It was radical, and it was fast, but it was also fragile, and wasn't flexible enough to overcome bad luck. They also didn't spend enough time worrying about other factors, like overall race strategy.

Either way, I don't expect Nissan to pull a big upset. It should be entertaining though with such an unusual car on the grid.

[TF110]

It wasnt really Toyotas fault for a tire failure. Unforseen circumstances. Nissan and everyone else face the same thing.

[Mt. Lynx]

So let's for the sake of it say that the ICE is a 600hp fourpot, with a massive turbo. Just one turbo, to save a few grams. Couldn't it be possible to use the stored energy to compensate for the lag, like LaFerrari? Or would that go against the rules?
What I mean here, is that they may be able to store 1400hp (well, I do think they will have an electric motor aswell. If they want their awd to work from 0kph, they have to), wich then can be used not only to compensate for turbo lag, but also at the top of the torque curve, especially if they run a long top gear.

Thoughts?

[TF110]

With 8mj per lap limit, running 1400hp from the electric power will be a short lived burst. I did a little math earlier, if it was to release like Toyota do, they could maybe get 12, 13 seconds total boost per lap at LM. That depends on how much power they intend to release at a time (per boost I call it). If they can even have electric motors that are small enough to handle that amount of power!

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

A diffuser is only an aid for the rear wing. Usually it doesn't produce any df on its own.

The diffuser/floor produces downforce on it's own, independent of the rear wing. The rear wing can interact favourably with the diffuser if positioned near the trailing edge.

[Mal]

Interesting:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...he-super-bowl/

[MyNameIsNigel]

Just giving further thoughts about the minimum area that the rear fin must have pursuant to Article 3.6.3 of the Technical Regulations. I note that the relevant provision actually refers to the visible area (in lateral view) and not the effective area of the fin:

Article 3.6.3 Fin
a/ General
(...)
With the car on its wheels, the visible area (in lateral view) of the fin must be greater than 3000cm2 from both sides.
(...)

This is even clearer in the French version of the provision:

Article 3.6.3 Dérive
a/ Général
(...)
La voiture étant sur ses roues, la surface de la partie visible (en vue latérale) de la dérive doit être supérieure �* 3000cm2 de chaque côté de la voiture.
(...)

If my understanding is correct, that would imply that the area of the fin that is masked by the rear fenders (in lateral view) will not be accounted for, but only the area of the portion of the fin that is visible from the sides.

Wheels having a smaller diameter at the rear (and therefore smaller rear fenders) may help increasing the visible area of the fin, but it remains to be seen if that 3000cm2 limit can be satisfied with a cockpit being pushed so far back as speculated.

Any thoughts ?

[MoMedic9019]

The 2000hp figure is intentionally misleading....it's designed to make people talk, and panic.

Electric motors develop peak power instantaneously, but don't maintain it..they maintain peak torque.

So, even if the system can develop 2000hp for just a few seconds, it's still 2000hp.