Hakkinen critical of Montoya's overtaking

[renaultbel]

Former McLaren Mercedes driver Mika Hakkinen, who is taking a year long break from the sport, has come out in criticism of Williams driver, Juan Pablo Montoya and what he calls the Colombian's risky overtaking maneuvers'. During only his third ever Formula One race in Brazil this year, Juan stunned the F1 world as well as Michael Schumacher, when he took the Ferrari driver on the restart. The duo almost touched wheels as the BMW powered Williams took to the lead leaving the reigning world champion in his wake.
This wasn't the only time the duo clashed as the season progressed and Juan's teammate Ralf Schumacher eventually called on team bosses asking for team orders to be introduced in the future. The reasoning the younger Schumacher gave was due to Juan's recklessness' when it came to racing and he was worried that the Colombian would try to pass him on the track where it wasn't appropriate and both cars would be out of the race

[Gt_R]

Having watched Juan Pablo's more prominent overtaking moves...it does seem to be a "do-or-die" kind of driving. The message he sends is clearly "either you give way, or you get taken out". Hmm..risky, it sure is, but what quality overtaking moves at 200mph isn't risky?

Dangerous? Maybe..afterall, it's the drivers who can best evaluate whether something on the track is dangerous or not...and i am not about to argue. But i don't think that JPM's moves are beyond acceptable levels of risk, just like i think that Michael's moves are all acceptable running at acceptable level of risk. So to JPM. Go for it, as long as you are in control of the situation.

When it comes to overtaking, i always thought that its wheel to wheel racing is THE STUFF. As for the dangers and risk, i think its up to the driver behind to keep things in check and back off when he sense that its going overboard. Afterall, he can better see and judge the situation than the driver in front.

But it wouldn't hurt if JPM practice slightly better control of his aggressiveness and cautious when overtaking.

[paulzinho]

JPM has to make an impact on the minds of others and he can do this by being aggressive, his overtaking hasn't taken anyone out (although you may wish to count Austria).

I personally don't feel that his moves are dangerous. When drivers like Schumacher leave just enough room to pass then it is the sign of a great driver to fit in that gap.

And was Hakkinens overtaking move at Spa 2000 dangerous? It was certainly spectacular and agressive.

[Number Juan]

maybe hakkinen should sit by the fire more often!

give me a break i mean come on...where the hell are you gonna get if you plod around the track waiting to get them at the pit stops?! its absolutely ludicrous.

[Gt_R]

I am always for aggressive overtaking, and i think its obvious to see what is on the limit (within control with some risk), and what moves are pure optimistic and silly (out of control with un-determined level of risk).

Like Jacques attempt in the rain in a certain Canadian race is plain...ridiculous AND dangerous...

But so far, i have no problems with Juan's moves...although who knows what may happen in the future

[f1manoz]

It's unusual for Hakkinen to come out in the press with something like this, and for once I would have to disagree with the Flying Finn (I'm sorry Mika!)

I'd like to see more drivers out there get agressive, take a chance, bite the bullet. Too much trundling around, follow-the-leader, wait-to-the-pitstops attitude.

JPM's way is better - move or be moved. It's spectacular and fun to watch.

[f1manoz]

Originally posted by Gt_R
But so far, i have no problems with Juan's moves...although who knows what may happen in the future

I know what happens - TGF will finally receive some of his own medicine for a change.

Roll on 2002.

[Schumacher]

I remember last year the majority of you were whining about Michael's start tactics when he would chop across to take the line - at that point all of you so-called "Safety freaks" were crying about how dangerous it was, blah blah blah.

Now, it's interesting to see how ya'all are jumping up and down with excitement to see Montoya over taking people in a dangerous fashion or attempting to take them out of the race, as in Austria for instance.

What Hakkinen said is true - Montoya goes for broke when he is overtaking another driver.All his overtaking moves on Trulli at Imola or Schumacher at Brazil for example, were made while relying on Schumacher to come off the throttle and for Trulli not to close the door.

Thats not going to happen everytime.And we could see Montoya going off into the barriers or taking someone else off with him.

Personally, I am just amazed to see all you hypocrites (and most of them arent even on this thread yet) - turning a blind dye to Montoya whereas the lot of you were whining about Schumacher not to long ago.

Tsk Tsk - talk about double standards!

[LYM]

Montoya's overtaking is nothing short of being brilliant. DC and JV were spot on to say F1 is a risky sport, there's no way to get around the risk element.

Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Kenny W.]

I agree that Montoya should be aggressive when overtaking.
When drivers see an aggressive driver (eg Schumi, Senna) they make room.
Unfortunately drivers like DC can make some great passes, but don't command the same respect so people do not get out of their way to the same extent.
You can't however compare an agressive overtaking manouver with TGF's irresponsible chopping manouvers.

[Sodemo2]

Yes, but do you consider Mansell's overtaking manoovers dangerous?

What about Estoril 91' - When he did Berger they very nearly clashed wheels.
Again Estoril 91' Wheel to wheel with Senna down the main straight.
Mexico 90' when Mansell did Berger round the outside of the Peratalda (sp!)
Silverstone 87' when Mansell very nearly bashed wheels with Piquet into Stowe.

Do you see a pattern here?

These moves were dangerous, and that is part of F1, Montoya is Mansell reborn.
Hakkinen has just lost the will to race, go and sit in your rocking chair in your slippers drinking co-ca.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by Schumacher
I remember last year the majority of you were whining about Michael's start tactics when he would chop across to take the line - at that point all of you so-called "Safety freaks" were crying about how dangerous it was, blah blah blah.

Now, it's interesting to see how ya'all are jumping up and down with excitement to see Montoya over taking people in a dangerous fashion or attempting to take them out of the race, as in Austria for instance.

There is a difference - for a start, Montoya did not deliberately try to take TGF out of the Austrian GP. He was defending a position, although perhaps he should have conceded it because his defence of it obviously wasn't going to be successful.

Secondly, there is an enormous, indescribable difference between making a daring overtaking manoeuvre and deliberately barging another driver over to the pitwall. Look at what TGF did to Ralf at the Nurburgring - he was literally within inches of crashing into the pitwall. Remind me of a time when Montoya did the same thing, please?

Now can somebody please remind me that I am a Ralf fan and I'm not supposed to defend the enemy!

[Wiki]

Stephie you are a RALF fan and shouldn't be defending MONTY

(er but for the record, i agree, he hasn't yet done a move that has endangered anyone's safety except for his own)

If i remind you of Monaco and Canada do you feel better Stephie???

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Like Jacques attempt in the rain in a certain Canadian race is plain...ridiculous AND dangerous

But nobody said that he wasn't

On the other hand, Mika didn't say he was...

[Powered by JPM]

Originally posted by Ralf's Girl


Now can somebody please remind me that I am a Ralf fan and I'm not supposed to defend the enemy!

I think you are due to a name upgrade. How does "Juan's Girl" sound???
I have already registered it for you

So whudda ya say, Juan's Girl?

oh yea...about the post (all this defending of JPM by RG has me thinking im in Bizzarro world or an episode of the Twilight Zone)

Anyways, i dont think u can really compare JPM's overtaking attempts to the deliberate moves by Micheal "Say hello to the wall" Shumacher

[kristof14]

hehe remember when he tried his "hello wall" tactics on Hill. I wonder how he sleeps knowing he's only WON 3 championships and not 4!

[Gt_R]

I don't see why we can't compare those two.

Both these guys JPM and MS only have one thing in mind : the opponent backs off. They leave just enough room for their opponents to make a retreat..(Okay, Austria JPM screwed up, and Brazil, not enough room).. and that defines their very forceful and aggressive drive.

These guys are good at what it takes to be a racing driver and hence watching them race each other is brilliant. Both guys are extremely aggressive when overtaking, and equally professional when doing defensive driving.

I see nothing wrong with them both. And I know my rights

RG;"Look at what TGF did to Ralf at the Nurburgring - he was literally within inches of crashing into the pitwall."

Don't you see?! Ralf is within inches, but is he in the wall? No. Because there are inches of room to spare! That's on the limit and giving your opponent just enough room (at least, i think Michael is for generous for he gives more room to his opponent than Juan who gives nil room. )

Anybody who finds Michael's tactics to be too harsh would not be able to swallow JPM's antics. Those who appreciates one would appreciate the other. Errm...but to think one is safe the other is not, which ever way it goes, is really suspicious.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Schumacher
I remember last year the majority of you were whining about Michael's start tactics when he would chop across to take the line - at that point all of you so-called "Safety freaks" were crying about how dangerous it was, blah blah blah.

Now, it's interesting to see how ya'all are jumping up and down with excitement to see Montoya over taking people in a dangerous fashion or attempting to take them out of the race, as in Austria for instance.

What Hakkinen said is true - Montoya goes for broke when he is overtaking another driver.All his overtaking moves on Trulli at Imola or Schumacher at Brazil for example, were made while relying on Schumacher to come off the throttle and for Trulli not to close the door.

Thats not going to happen everytime.And we could see Montoya going off into the barriers or taking someone else off with him.

Personally, I am just amazed to see all you hypocrites (and most of them arent even on this thread yet) - turning a blind dye to Montoya whereas the lot of you were whining about Schumacher not to long ago.

Tsk Tsk - talk about double standards!

That's exactly the type of behaviour I would expect from a TGF fan .

Hmmm...on the subject of Double standards here you are clearly defending Micheal for his tactics, yet at the same time you are condemning Montoya, calling him dangerous and daring. Who's being the hypocrite now? . The difference is Montoya has never deliberately rammed someone off the track when they were fighting for the WC and he has never squeezed someone into the pit-wall. If he does, and none of us condemn him for it, then you can call as hypocrite. Untill then, give it a rest(but somehow I think that's how you get your kicks .

[Gt_R]

"The difference is Montoya has never deliberately rammed someone off the track when they were fighting for the WC"

Please tell me...when was Montoya ever fighting for the WC besides the first 3 races of the year? But even then, so is Alonso fighting for WC.

If i remember correctly, Juan Pablo Montoya's form took an upswing AFTER Michael sealed the WDC... so how on earth did you draw that conclusion, bearing in mind this is his only year in F1?

"That's exactly the type of behaviour I would expect from a TGF fan"

And that's exactly the type of behavior i would expect from you too, Mr RD

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Gt_R
"The difference is Montoya has never deliberately rammed someone off the track when they were fighting for the WC"

Please tell me...when was Montoya ever fighting for the WC besides the first 3 races of the year? But even then, so is Alonso fighting for WC.

Montoya was never fighting for the WC, not to my knowledge at least(unless you want to include the moments where his chances were purely mathematical), but that statement was made just to proove my point. We get called hypocrites by TGF fanatics because they think we turn a blind eye to Montoya's moves, so I was merely pin-pointing the obvious differences between the tactics of the 2......"but he's never been in a champioship deciding situation!" I hear you cry out. Well let's just wait untill he is, before we jump to any rash conclusions.



"That's exactly the type of behaviour I would expect from a TGF fan"

And that's exactly the type of behavior i would expect from you too, Mr RD

Not surprised to see you take your usual swing at me GT-R...you are a work of pure enlightenment .

[Schumacher]

Originally posted by Raoul Duke





Hmmm...on the subject of Double standards here you are clearly defending Micheal for his tactics, yet at the same time you are condemning Montoya, calling him dangerous and daring. Who's being the hypocrite now? . The difference is Montoya has never deliberately rammed someone off the track when they were fighting for the WC and he has never squeezed someone into the pit-wall. . 8

Obviously you've lost your reading glasses Raoul Duke.I never said anything about "condemning Montoya" - all I was doing was agreeing with Hakkinen that Montoya's tactics are "aggressive" and offcourse - ponting out that the lot of you are a bunch of hypocrites


If you remember - I always defended Michael during his "starts" because I believe he was simply racing as hard as possible. Likewise, I have no problem with Montoya's do or die overtaking methods either. But I do have a problem with some of you Schumy-bashers who are turning a blind eye towards Montoya's aggressive driving tactics whilst at the same time - whining about Michael.

I understand moaning about what Michael did to some british boy is a favorite passtime for the folks at ten-tenths but that doesent mean I cant call you guys on it

Ralf's Girl - you said that trying to put someone into the wall is one thing and defending your position or attempting to overtake someone is another. Now thats really interesting. Firstly, when Michael chops across at the start - he makes the other driver lift off to avoid a collision - correct? Cast your mind back to Brazil. When Montoya passed Michael, he was pretty much telling Michael to lift off or take them both out of the race. It was probably similar to Malaysia and the incident b/w Ralf and Barrichelo for that matter. Ralf had his nose in front and Barrichelo kept going - as a result he took Ralf out of the equation. (purely an example - both situations were obviously different but they do share a similarity in some ways). Likewise in Brazil,if Michael did not lift and allow himself to be pushed wide - he would have been out of the race along with Montoya himself.

Then instead of talking about the "move of the season" - you all would be talking about the "blunder of the year" or "Schumys do or die approach"!


I do not see a difference in either case.On the one hand you have a driver who is chopping across at the start - and on the other you have a driver who says "give me the room and lift off, or else I dare you to take us off".

Both are aggressive tactics - that rely on the opposition to use their heads and not take them off.You cannot differentiate b/w the two.

[senna12]

I found absolutely nothing wrong with Juan's driving and overtaking this year. He wishes to leave the same impression on his opponents that his idol Senna did. He is being successful at this, judging by Mika's comments.
At this level, the real difference is in the mind....and Juan's mind is very strong.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Schumacher


Obviously you've lost your reading glasses Raoul Duke.I never said anything about "condemning Montoya" - all I was doing was agreeing with Hakkinen that Montoya's tactics are "aggressive" and offcourse - ponting out that the lot of you are a bunch of hypocrites .........But I do have a problem with some of you Schumy-bashers who are turning a blind eye towards Montoya's aggressive driving tactics whilst at the same time - whining about Michael.

what we have here is clearly a case of selective argumentation. You'll only see what you want to see and ignore the rest at your own convenience. If you notice that the same people who are against TGF's moves are defending Montoya's moves, it automatically makes us hypocrites, it doesn't matter that we may have our reasons or that we see a clear-cut difference between the 2.

Of course these are always good places for well thought-out, well-reasoned constructive debates. But of course it's always easier to resort to the missile launching and verbal attacks isn't it?.

[Dr. Austin]

Raoul, you are beating me to the punch every time there is a schui dirty driving discussion. You are saying all the things I would, so keep it up. I'm only posting to offer my support. You are otherwise doing just fine without me.

[Joe Fan]

I remember receiving flack (accused of disliking South Americans by one poster here) for saying the same thing. Al Unser Jr. caught a lot of flack too for being critical of Juan's aggressive style at the Gateway race in 1999 for which I personally attended.