[Team] The new Mercedes powered team for 2015.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Aside from the fact that the DFVs were being pushed beyond well their design limits, the manufacturing and assembly techniques back then were primitive in comparison to today. This will give you an idea as well as this. This exposed them to a great deal more failures than they ought to have been. DFVs [and their successors] running in historic racing today can last several seasons between rebuilds and deliver almost as much power as back in the day.

There are a number of factors involved in why the engines in historic cars last longer, and three of those are that better materials are used nowadays, preparation techniques have improved and also, most of the engines are now detuned to a certain extent so that the stress levels are lower. Another reason is the horrendous cost of having a rebuild.

The fact that lap times are consistent and in some cases lower now is due also to many factors; better track surfaces, faster flowing corners, better rubber and "improvements" in the handling department, amongst others.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

There are a number of factors involved in why the engines in historic cars last longer, and three of those are that better materials are used nowadays, preparation techniques have improved and also, most of the engines are now detuned to a certain extent so that the stress levels are lower. Another reason is the horrendous cost of having a rebuild.

Ya exactly... and that's allowing for the fact that we're talking about an almost 50 year old design. Today there are similar sized road going engines delivering almost as much power c.f. the BMW S65.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

You're right about everything here. However by the 1970s, F1 had become ostensibly a single engine formula and that did mean costs were considerably lower than today... allowing for inflation of course.

When McLaren started 1968 with the M7A they purchased five engines at a cost of 37500 pounds. Obviously rebuilds etc would be required and there were blow ups etc but by and large there weren't that many given the number of engines being used by Lotus, McLaren and Tyrrell-Matra in 1968.

If we used inflation adjusted figures for 2014 then we could allow the price to rise to an equivalent of 350,000 pounds per engine. Given that one teams Mercedes power unit bill is approximately15.9 million pounds, that would still buy 45 engines at 2014 prices or nearly 2.5 engines (at modern equivalent prices) per race when we are in an era that requires one engines last 4 races on average.
The 100,000 quid Ford stomped up for the development costs would have a value of 4-5 million today.
As F1 has grown over the 46 years since 1968 expenditure has multiplied several times the rate of inflation but are we seeing better racing? Is F1 better? Or healthier for it?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by aki13

I too cant see Mercedes wanting to supply Red Bull with an engine, when they are most likely to beat Mercedes

If there were a logical buyer for the MercedesF1 team, this would be a masterstroke! Imagine supplying PUs to the team and no others Euromillions, knowing the team was always fully funded and picking drivers on merit!

Win win...

[Mike Harte]

Teretonga, as interesting as your post is, and trying not to be disparaging, but it is fairly meaningless in today's world; there are just too many unknowns.

You say McLaren purchased 5 engines in '68. Was that for just one car, or two? How many rebuilds were required during the year, and did they have to purchase any more from Cosworth or other sources during the season? And so on and so forth.

Lastly, as I alluded to before, unless anyone has access to the financial records of both Ford Motor Co. and Cosworth, we will not know by how much, if any, that Ford subsidised each engine? Yes, it is on "record" that Ford gave Cosworth £100,000 as initial seed money, but do we really know if that was the actual limit to their financial assistance?

And a final lastly, in this post at least, it is nigh on impossible to compare those days to current Mercedes' pricing structure. How much is the actual cost of the power-units (which are far, far more complex than anything seen before) and how much is to partly repay the development costs? Are Mercedes making a profit on the PUs, or are they making a loss because they have to maintain the costs to a certain level because they are mandated to by the FIA?

But as you concluded - are we seeing better racing or is the sport healthier for current trends? The answer to both is a resounding NO !

[GTRMagic]

Red Bull Renault isnt dominating. That is winning favour in many fans' eyes

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Teretonga, as interesting as your post is, and trying not to be disparaging, but it is fairly meaningless in today's world; there are just too many unknowns.

You say McLaren purchased 5 engines in '68. Was that for just one car, or two? How many rebuilds were required during the year, and did they have to purchase any more from Cosworth or other sources during the season? And so on and so forth.

Lastly, as I alluded to before, unless anyone has access to the financial records of both Ford Motor Co. and Cosworth, we will not know by how much, if any, that Ford subsidised each engine? Yes, it is on "record" that Ford gave Cosworth £100,000 as initial seed money, but do we really know if that was the actual limit to their financial assistance?

And a final lastly, in this post at least, it is nigh on impossible to compare those days to current Mercedes' pricing structure. How much is the actual cost of the power-units (which are far, far more complex than anything seen before) and how much is to partly repay the development costs? Are Mercedes making a profit on the PUs, or are they making a loss because they have to maintain the costs to a certain level because they are mandated to by the FIA?

But as you concluded - are we seeing better racing or is the sport healthier for current trends? The answer to both is a resounding NO !

Mike

My facts are for the team, both cars. It is what it says.

There is no nostalgia here. it was just a thought about relative spending in F1 over a 45 year period.

I think initially the engines may have been subsidised to a degree although the initial Ford money was for the design and construction of the engine for Lotus. Then Walter Hayes decided they would make the engine available to other teams at the end of 67. This was decided by Ford and Hayes explained it Colin Chapman.
Subsequently in the following years Ford sponsored Tyrrell while Jackie Stewart was there.

I doubt engines were subsidised to other teams during that period so IF the price at the beginning of 1968 was a subsidised price the subsidy didn't last long.
And Mercedes? I think their engines prices to customers may be subsidised in which case it is costing them money to contract out, not a source of income.

If anything my only real point in raising the comparison was to point out F1 was spending an inordinate amount of money on engines / power units but none of it was making any difference to improving F1 or providing a better spectacle.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Mike

My facts are for the team, both cars. It is what it says.

There is no nostalgia here. it was just a thought about relative spending in F1 over a 45 year period.

I think initially the engines may have been subsidised to a degree although the initial Ford money was for the design and construction of the engine for Lotus. Then Walter Hayes decided they would make the engine available to other teams at the end of 67. This was decided by Ford and Hayes explained it Colin Chapman.
Subsequently in the following years Ford sponsored Tyrrell while Jackie Stewart was there.

I doubt engines were subsidised to other teams during that period so IF the price at the beginning of 1968 was a subsidised price the subsidy didn't last long.
And Mercedes? I think their engines prices to customers may be subsidised in which case it is costing them money to contract out, not a source of income.

If anything my only real point in raising the comparison was to point out F1 was spending an inordinate amount of money on engines / power units but none of it was making any difference to improving F1 or providing a better spectacle.

Mark Donohue who was running F5000 for Penske round about this time (1970 ish) also said that they were getting about the same power out of the stock block engines for 1/10 the cost, albeit they were a bit heavier.
F5000 racing in its heyday was way way better racing than F1 has ever been!

Bottom line is the engines do not have to be so expensive!

With the right rules they could race stock 600 bhp V8s at about $5000 a pop.

F1 has always been about men in pointed hats bearing moons and stars performing voodoo at eye watering expense, now everything is completely secret and rumours only seep out! the rest is spec.

[Tucky]

There are a couple of things I think haven't been taken into consideration:

1. Making the engines better is becoming infinitely harder because like aerodynamics, its harder for a simple change to make a massive difference. The engine manufacturers are spending lots of money trying to find the smallest advantage.

2. The number of people working on the engines has greatly increased, not to mention the vast amount of electronics used to develop the engines. For the engineers working on developing the engines, they must be incredibly well paid. I don't know what the amounts are but I'm guessing that even if you take the salaries from the engineers 50 years ago but with inflation for 2014, they would be hugely underpaid compared to the current crop of engineers.

Also in regards to the question about whether F1 is healthier with the huge spending; F1 probably wouldn't be as big of a sport if it wasn't for the huge spending previously. Right now you can argue that it's gotten out of hand, but without the vast spending early on it's likely that F1 would be a shadow of what it is right now.

[321Go]

Confirmed. Lotus will be Mercedes powered in 2015.
Official announcement soon.

[p-matt]

I'm not doubting the story, because it definitely looks like it's true, but didn't Lotus sign a multi year deal with Renault in March? I presume there must have been performance clauses.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Tucky

There are a couple of things I think haven't been taken into consideration:

1. Making the engines better is becoming infinitely harder because like aerodynamics, its harder for a simple change to make a massive difference. The engine manufacturers are spending lots of money trying to find the smallest advantage.

2. The number of people working on the engines has greatly increased, not to mention the vast amount of electronics used to develop the engines. For the engineers working on developing the engines, they must be incredibly well paid. I don't know what the amounts are but I'm guessing that even if you take the salaries from the engineers 50 years ago but with inflation for 2014, they would be hugely underpaid compared to the current crop of engineers.

Also in regards to the question about whether F1 is healthier with the huge spending; F1 probably wouldn't be as big of a sport if it wasn't for the huge spending previously. Right now you can argue that it's gotten out of hand, but without the vast spending early on it's likely that F1 would be a shadow of what it is right now.

Another contributor to reliability today is gearboxes. The ability to engineer perfect changes takes a lot of the human mistake / variability out of it so everything happens within prescribed parameters which eliminates over revving, poor gear changes and the after effects of the human error.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Confirmed. Lotus will be Mercedes powered in 2015.
Official announcement soon.

Confirmed where? At Lotus? At Mercedes Benz?

Joe Saward suggests it will happen, Here, which is better than making unsubstantiated claims... even if they prove right!

[321Go]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Maybe they should have gone to Cosworth and Ilmor and had them tender for a common spec. engine.

Hmmm.. you might be onto something here. One of the names mentioned in your post just might (might) be making a comeback, of sorts. More news to follow as it reaches the news desk.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Hmmm.. you might be onto something here. One of the names mentioned in your post just might (might) be making a comeback, of sorts. More news to follow as it reaches the news desk.

I've heard those rumors about Ilmor myself too... I'll believe it when I see it

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Confirmed. Lotus will be Mercedes powered in 2015.
Official announcement soon.

Mmmmm, I'd like some sauce with that tidbit........

[Articus]

That's a slap in the face considering that's the former renault team still working out of the old Renault F1 base in Enstone...