Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[pirenzo]

Surely the diveplanes are motivated by increasing total downforce, rather than to change the balance of the car?

EDIT: that is, if you want to add downforce to the rear, you must also add to the front to keep the car in trim.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Why didn't they go on before LM? Surely it was understeering from day 1.

They probably did not want the extra drag. The dive planes should help with traction out of faster corners as well but not so much in the slow stuff. Remember the nissan was been overtaken by almost everything coming out of corners at LM only to repass some of them when it finally got up to speed.

[BTCC 318d]

Re marketing angle, nissan is Different. Fun. The NISMO brand is sporty. The Nissan NISMO combo is sporty, fun and different. They don't need the lmp programme to promote nismo - it's already well served by the GTR, 370z and their close ties with computer games (which, lets be honest is fecking genius, having the foresight to support Gran Tourismo so heavily all those years ago). The LMP programme is shiwing different - which is the key for sales of Qashqui, leaf, note and juke - all cars that are "like what everyone else makes, but a bit different.

Nissan learned a while ago that they can't out Fiesta Ford, or out Corsa Vauxhall. What they did instead was make cars in the gap between the conventional ranges in the mainstream - and did a bloody good job of it. Nissan will never be (within 20 years at least) a premium brand like ze germans - so beating them serves no purpose. They could muller Audi by 8 laps and you won't see 1,000 fleet buyers ditch their A4 s-line for a pulsar, or a1 for a micra. However, being different sells qashquis, leafs and Jukes.

Nissan also major on the lifestyle / fun angle. Nissan's whole motorsports package gives that. What is more empowering and entertaining than bringing some kid from playstation to lmp1? No need to be aloof, superior etc a la ze germans - instead bringing fans to the tech, bringing punters into the garage - nissan fits everyone. Just like the qashquai. Gran in the front, kids in the back, and enough room for the shopping and fido.

I know this is a motorsports forum, so most of us are mainly concerned about the race - but to call nissan's commercial result poor because they lost to Audi / Porsche is IMO totally missing the point of why their top brass gave them a budget in the first place...

[Ronald_Fish]

Originally Posted by BTCC 318d

Re marketing angle, nissan is Different. Fun. The NISMO brand is sporty. The Nissan NISMO combo is sporty, fun and different. They don't need the lmp programme to promote nismo - it's already well served by the GTR, 370z and their close ties with computer games (which, lets be honest is fecking genius, having the foresight to support Gran Tourismo so heavily all those years ago). The LMP programme is shiwing different - which is the key for sales of Qashqui, leaf, note and juke - all cars that are "like what everyone else makes, but a bit different.

Nissan learned a while ago that they can't out Fiesta Ford, or out Corsa Vauxhall. What they did instead was make cars in the gap between the conventional ranges in the mainstream - and did a bloody good job of it. Nissan will never be (within 20 years at least) a premium brand like ze germans - so beating them serves no purpose. They could muller Audi by 8 laps and you won't see 1,000 fleet buyers ditch their A4 s-line for a pulsar, or a1 for a micra. However, being different sells qashquis, leafs and Jukes.

Nissan also major on the lifestyle / fun angle. Nissan's whole motorsports package gives that. What is more empowering and entertaining than bringing some kid from playstation to lmp1? No need to be aloof, superior etc a la ze germans - instead bringing fans to the tech, bringing punters into the garage - nissan fits everyone. Just like the qashquai. Gran in the front, kids in the back, and enough room for the shopping and fido.

I know this is a motorsports forum, so most of us are mainly concerned about the race - but to call nissan's commercial result poor because they lost to Audi / Porsche is IMO totally missing the point of why their top brass gave them a budget in the first place...

They had to do lemans with an LMP1 after the ACO said so, due to the deltawing and zeod (same thing) were PR runs at a fraction of the cost of P1 grabbing headlines from the winner (in some quarters).

So they do an LMP1 on the cheap, and the wrong way round, to keep the ACO sweet and do the PR. Give it the big spin and PR which is what they really want.

They don't want to be (and will not be) successfull at racing, if they did their LMP1 racing budget would be the same or bigger than their PR budget!

[ss_collins]

They don't want to be (and will not be) successfull at racing

Didn't watch Fuji then...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Ronald_Fish

They had to do lemans with an LMP1 after the ACO said so, due to the deltawing and zeod (same thing) were PR runs at a fraction of the cost of P1 grabbing headlines from the winner (in some quarters).

So they do an LMP1 on the cheap, and the wrong way round, to keep the ACO sweet and do the PR. Give it the big spin and PR which is what they really want.

They don't want to be (and will not be) successfull at racing, if they did their LMP1 racing budget would be the same or bigger than their PR budget!

Thats wrong and you should know it. Imo, if you actually believe what you wrote, then you must have something against Nissan. PR aside, the program is in its infancy. Just because their marketing is off-putting to some, doesnt mean they dont value LM or racing in general. In their eyes, the two go hand in hand. Not everyone is a winner. But they have a history at LM that goes back further than Audi's. Its not some ploy by the marketing team or holding up their agreement because a couple G56 entries. They deserve way more credit than youre giving them.

Yorkshireland was right in his post. This thread has gone full circle again. I hope we can just talk about what the car is doing instead of the arguments on their marketing ideas.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats wrong and you should know it. Imo, if you actually believe what you wrote, then you must have something against Nissan. PR aside, the program is in its infancy. Just because their marketing is off-putting to some, doesnt mean they dont value LM or racing in general. In their eyes, the two go hand in hand. Not everyone is a winner. But they have a history at LM that goes back further than Audi's. Its not some ploy by the marketing team or holding up their agreement because a couple G56 entries. They deserve way more credit than youre giving them.

Yorkshireland was right in his post. This thread has gone full circle again. I hope we can just talk about what the car is doing instead of the arguments on their marketing ideas.

Unfortunately (?) the car isn't doing much anymore in terms of racing this season (and has done only 1 race in total so far) and marketing is what this project is all about - and it seems Nissan revels the negative publicity as much as all the other publicity they're creating.

In the meantime lots of Nissan and sportscar fans are bitterly disappointed - maybe not so much by the lack of performance but by the onorthodox 'showing up at LM at all costs (= without sufficient preparation)' racing approach being demonstrated...

[TF110]

So what? People are criticizing them for racing, and then criticizing them again for not racing. Which is it, then? Let them do what they do. If it comes back uncompetitive, thats what they are. If they didnt race this year theyd still be criticized. So to some, they do nothing right. Even if they do what is right its still wrong. Those type of posts are upsetting to read. At least releasing this video shows that theyre serious about racing and trying to win, imo.

[Akrapovic]

If you don't want such levels of criticism, then the route to take involves not making grand claims and dismissing other teams projects, whilst heavily under performing, and not declaring success from failure.

Sorry if that's harsh, but that's how it is for everyone else, and how it is for Nissan too.

[YorkshireLad]

Okay, imagine your in charge of the P1 project what would you all personally do with the car, PR train, racing and other aspects of the project.

[MitchZ06]

Cut the PR BS, put 100% effort into the hybrid system to get it working (personally I'd make the rears the same width as the fronts and stick a transaxle in the back, hybrid to both axles), then test like mad and aim for a (undisclosed) return to WEC this year if at all possible.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Okay, imagine your in charge of the P1 project what would you all personally do with the car, PR train, racing and other aspects of the project.

As soon as the first test showed the car and hybrid to be dogs kill the PR and add that budget to r&d and test, fix, test, fix until the car is ready for the 2016 season, then start the PR mill again.
The newest PR release showing how well the mechanics can push the car in and out of the garage and calling it success is not the right message. OTOH, potential Leaf buyers aren't even watching.

[Ronald_Fish]

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats wrong and you should know it. Imo, if you actually believe what you wrote, then you must have something against Nissan. PR aside, the program is in its infancy. Just because their marketing is off-putting to some, doesnt mean they dont value LM or racing in general. In their eyes, the two go hand in hand. Not everyone is a winner. But they have a history at LM that goes back further than Audi's. Its not some ploy by the marketing team or holding up their agreement because a couple G56 entries. They deserve way more credit than youre giving them.

Yorkshireland was right in his post. This thread has gone full circle again. I hope we can just talk about what the car is doing instead of the arguments on their marketing ideas.

Credit for coming to Le mans with 5 cars in the last 4 years and not a single car making the finish. That means being officially classified by the ACO.

Everyone wants Nissan to be at the sharp end, but no amount of positivity is going to detract from this being a PR exercise. That is what Mr Cox has said was the main Le Mans achievement. So congratulations on a job well done, leave the winning to the likes of Audi and Porsche, simples.

[Keycube]

Originally Posted by wdave0

As soon as the first test showed the car and hybrid to be dogs kill the PR and add that budget to r&d and test, fix, test, fix until the car is ready for the 2016 season, then start the PR mill again.
The newest PR release showing how well the mechanics can push the car in and out of the garage and calling it success is not the right message. OTOH, potential Leaf buyers aren't even watching.

Serious question for anyone - did the hybrid ever actually work in any capacity? I thought I remember something from MoMedic about the hybrid unit compromising the car structurally somehow (apologies in advance to MoMedic if I'm just throwing words out)..? Also talk (write?) of it being a beast on the dyno..?

Just wondering if the Super Bowl ad and anything thereafter was made without the car ever working properly.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If you don't want such levels of criticism, then the route to take involves not making grand claims and dismissing other teams projects, whilst heavily under performing, and not declaring success from failure.

Sorry if that's harsh, but that's how it is for everyone else, and how it is for Nissan too.

Seems to me we keep going back to their PR instead of talking about the car. Thats what Im saying is wrong in this thread. Maybe I didnt get that point across.

No matter what they do now, its more criticism. Even though there is no bs PR going on about how theyll win and everyone else sucks.

Originally Posted by Ronald_Fish

Credit for coming to Le mans with 5 cars in the last 4 years and not a single car making the finish. That means being officially classified by the ACO.

Everyone wants Nissan to be at the sharp end, but no amount of positivity is going to detract from this being a PR exercise. That is what Mr Cox has said was the main Le Mans achievement. So congratulations on a job well done, leave the winning to the likes of Audi and Porsche, simples.

Thats not the point. The point is they showed up. Too early, but still came. They didnt HAVE to. The story of they had to commit to lmp1 to do G56 -to my knowledge- has yet to be proven. What you seem to think is they wont be back. But what they say is the opposite. I find it odd that some people want to hang on to their word before, but not now. Only when its a negative and bogus PR should they be quoted, but nothing positive

[YorkshireLad]

Tbh I find their PR a flop, is anything actually trending about the car now? No, just that it was ****. All that hype that snow balled has ground to a halt, for me in the worst part, failure. It's all just fizzled away into the background.

All that time and money now seems wasted.


Maybe a blog about what's happening would be of use to people actually interested in the resolving and development stage. Shouldn't be so difficult with a project that's been so open before. Then again you have to care about those fans to start with, before you start reassuring said fans but we only cover a small percentage of the people who digested their PR bull.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

What you seem to think is they wont be back. But what they say is the opposite.

Problem is of course that Nissan is far from credible anymore - in other words: I believe it when I see it. Until then I'm not buying anything they say.

[carbsmith]

How many hours of testing have they done at CotA to not even race at CotA?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Problem is of course that Nissan is far from credible anymore - in other words: I believe it when I see it. Until then I'm not buying anything they say.

Prime example of what I just said. How were they ever credible or uncredible? This thread goes way back to when people were doubting they were even going to enter an lmp1. That happened. People said they would never make LM. That happened too. Not buying into pr doesnt mean every word they say should be discounted. The wec press release on their site was from the head of NISMO. He isnt Cox or Palmer or Bowbly. His word carries weight imo. We'll see, but I believe theyll be back.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Prime example of what I just said. How were they ever credible or uncredible? This thread goes way back to when people were doubting they were even going to enter an lmp1. That happened. People said they would never make LM. That happened too. Not buying into pr doesnt mean every word they say should be discounted. The wec press release on their site was from the head of NISMO. He isnt Cox or Palmer or Bowbly. His word carries weight imo. We'll see, but I believe theyll be back.

Right, I don't want to beat the same drum and be constantly negative, because I do want the Nissan to succeed, but posts like this do not help the image. You've just cherry picked the things they've actually achieved, and ignored the things they did not. They also said they'd be racing in WEC - this has not happened. They said they'd finish at Le Mans (in fact they have claimed this as a success), this did not happen. They said they'd be at the Ring. This is not happening. So if I cherry pick things, I can make them look the exact opposite.

I want the Nissan to do properly well. Partly because it'll show how fantastically varied you can make race cars in WEC, whilst other series move towards spec series. However I want it to do well by the same standards that everyone else is judged by, not by standards that we've had to set significantly lower, just in order to classify it a success. Because at the moment, it's no different to the AMR-One, and is worse than the Lavaggi LS1.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

Seems to me we keep going back to their PR instead of talking about the car. Thats what Im saying is wrong in this thread. Maybe I didnt get that point across.

No matter what they do now, its more criticism. Even though there is no bs PR going on about how theyll win and everyone else sucks.

Originally Posted by TF110

Prime example of what I just said. How were they ever credible or uncredible? This thread goes way back to when people were doubting they were even going to enter an lmp1. That happened. People said they would never make LM. That happened too. Not buying into pr doesnt mean every word they say should be discounted. The wec press release on their site was from the head of NISMO. He isnt Cox or Palmer or Bowbly. His word carries weight imo. We'll see, but I believe theyll be back.

No, it's not, I'm not playing your favorite 'leave the PR off the bandwagon song' but instead focus on their announced race participation (2015 WEC program) which, like Akrapovic pointed out above - have not materialized other than showing up at Le Mans, hardly achieving anything in sporting terms when keeping in mind we're talking about a major car manufacturer here - not a niche one or a (semi-)privateer.

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats not the point. The point is they showed up. Too early, but still came. They didnt HAVE to. The story of they had to commit to lmp1 to do G56 -to my knowledge- has yet to be proven. What you seem to think is they wont be back. But what they say is the opposite. I find it odd that some people want to hang on to their word before, but not now. Only when its a negative and bogus PR should they be quoted, but nothing positive

Just like they said they would be at Silverstone, at the Ring and the remainder of the WEC this year. Now all of a sudden it's completely different and we have to believe them? There's your lack of credibility for you. Hope you'll get it.

[Pandemonium]

Well what good has their PR made? I am never ever buying a Nissan. And so are my friends. Darren Cox hope you read this.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

No, it's not, I'm not playing your favorite 'leave the PR off the bandwagon song' but instead focus on their announced race participation (2015 WEC program) which, like Akrapovic pointed out above - have not materialized other than showing up at Le Mans, hardly achieving anything in sporting terms when keeping in mind we're talking about a major car manufacturer here - not a niche one or a (semi-)privateer.

Thats derailing the thread. Its been discussed to death and then back to life. But posts like yours complaining about their PR keep it going. Thats the real bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Just like they said they would be at Silverstone, at the Ring and the remainder of the WEC this year. Now all of a sudden it's completely different and we have to believe them? There's your lack of credibility for you. Hope you'll get it.

The head of Nismo didnt put out a press release bigging up their entry. Youre confusing their marketing with actual news. Why did you dismiss that? You can talk and type about their PR till your fingers bleed... My point was the President of Nismo put out a statement saying theyre intentions are to return. I 'get it'. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

The head of Nismo didnt put out a press release bigging up their entry. Why did you dismiss that fact? You can talk and type about their PR till your fingers bleed... My point was the President of Nismo put out a statement saying theyre intentions are to return. I 'get it'.

So we only count stuff said by people of importance, rather than the PR machine. But we have to ignore Andy Palmer, who was so high up Nissan he reported directly to the CEO? So do we just pick and choose who we believe in Nissan? Do we have some sort of flow chart or something?

Nismo President? Good.
Chief Operating Officer? Bad.
Global head of marketing? Bad.
Chief Technology Officer? Good or bad, depending on what the moon is doing that particular day.

This is ridiculous. Maybe we should just judge all teams on what they actually do rather than what they said they'd do.

[TF110]

Palmer isnt even part of Nissan anymore. "Reports to the CEO"... plenty of other examples in other companies like the Toyota team reporting to the board or the CEO. He was a high up but wasn't comparable in any way to Miyatani. Two different credentials.

You're setting the example of picking and choosing. You brought it up. People dont want to listen to Cox, or Palmer or whoever, so I gave a link to someone's word not heard or in this project. Shoichi Miyatani is no PR man or spokesperson. I said it before, you dont have to believe Nissan. But I do.