IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors

[carbsmith]

It doesn't say much that there's only three privateer LMP1s in the world when they're only allowed in what is by default the most expensive sports car series in the world and have an entry cap. The maximum worldwide market for privateer P1s is literally about 5 cars under the current arrangement, which isn't enough for customer cars to even attempt to exist either.

If they had allowed P1s they wouldn't have been arbitrarily doubling the cost of DPs to make sure the "Daytona" cars win at Daytona. If they aren't racing for overall wins they remain a reasonably cost effective pay driver viable class that would probably have more cars than it does now. (Starworks, Sahlen, 8Star, etc.)

[TF110]

Private lmp1 teams have money enough to buy a car or pay for one to be developed (oreca for Rebellion, Strakka's new car). New lmp2's will run to lmp1 rules in terms of chassis anyway. Now the price of a DP is approaching lmp1 private teams' cars. The DP guys had to make mods to their cars or buy new ones. So in my view, there wasn't much money saving by dropping a class that 2, 3 teams were already in. You lost both those lmp1 teams now, and Audi, Porsche, Nissan, Rebellion cant race any of the events. But theres reason to believe all of them would be interested in using their lmp1's.

[Rcz]

IMSA should allow experimental P1s to race like the Nissan, the Delta wing was one you know.

I do think DPs and P2s should be separate classes. In fact I think they should have done that at the start. They can both go for overall wins but should be scored differently from each other.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It doesn't say much that there's only three privateer LMP1s in the world when they're only allowed in what is by default the most expensive sports car series in the world and have an entry cap. The maximum worldwide market for privateer P1s is literally about 5 cars under the current arrangement, which isn't enough for customer cars to even attempt to exist either.

Even if they removed the cap, how many could there be? The number of people who can afford them is really small, and nothing the ACO has done has changed that, even turning the P2 category into a psuedo-spec class. Short of kicking the factory P1s (which is unimaginable), you will never make P1-L work well regardless of if they allowed it in IMSA or ELMS.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

If they had allowed P1s they wouldn't have been arbitrarily doubling the cost of DPs to make sure the "Daytona" cars win at Daytona.

No, keeping up with the P2s did that. The DPs in 2013 specs would be tied up with the GTE cars. I will always agree that they had to go faster, and they were made faster. All allowing P1 cars would do is make sure the one or two teams who can show up with them win (and considering MMPR's Oreca finished fourth in the 2014 Rolex 24, them with that HPD all but guarantees they've won before the race even starts), which will undoubtedly make the economics of prototype racing of any sort unviable.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

If they aren't racing for overall wins they remain a reasonably cost effective pay driver viable class that would probably have more cars than it does now. (Starworks, Sahlen, 8Star, etc.)

They already had to go faster, so the cost doesn't change. All allowing P1s does is make sure the DP guys get screwed, period - they had to spend the money regardless of what shows up, but when combined with the P2s the possibility was that they could win the race against the P2s. The P1s, which had drawn a grand total of three regular entrants in the previous three years, simply had no place in the merged series. The only way it could have worked is if the P1s could be ratcheted down so that they didn't run away as the DeltaWing was. Could that have worked? For Dyson, maybe. For MMPR, not a chance.

Originally Posted by TF110

Private lmp1 teams have money enough to buy a car or pay for one to be developed (oreca for Rebellion, Strakka's new car).

I give Strakka one chance in five of making it back to P1 - they bailed on it for cost reasons the first time, and they spent a massive sum of money on the now-useless Strakka-Dome S103. To be honest, I think it says much about dedication to prototypes that the 2017 rules didn't see them and SMP walk on the series for GT3 racing right then and there. I'd like to be wrong, but I'll be surprised if Strakka returns to P1 for any length of time.

Originally Posted by TF110

New lmp2's will run to lmp1 rules in terms of chassis anyway.

In terms of chassis dimensions, yes. But that is where the similarities stop. Anybody seriously thinking that they can make a P2 car into a P1 car with upgrades might want to look at that again.

Originally Posted by TF110

Now the price of a DP is approaching lmp1 private teams' cars. The DP guys had to make mods to their cars or buy new ones.

Some of the DP guys went for the upgrades at a cost of about $300,000 a car, some didn't, and they didn't actually have to, but not doing so would have seen them far, far off the pace.

I would be surprised if the ByKolles or Rebellion R-One costs less than $2.5 million, and the most expensive DP out there is maybe $800,000. That's not approaching P1-L cost, its still a gigantic gap, and that's just in the cost of buying the car. The cost of operating it is another matter entirely, and its just as expensive there. IMSA simply didn't have the exposure for these cars, and if they had allowed it, I stand by what I said earlier - the result would have been two MMPR victories followed by Dyson cleaning up everywhere else. That immediately results in infuriated DP teams who desert the class rapidly for GT or PC cars. Result of that is that by the start of 2015 there are maybe five or six prototypes in both categories. Is that better than now? I think we all know the answer to that, and the answer is a resounding NO.

Originally Posted by TF110

So in my view, there wasn't much money saving by dropping a class that 2, 3 teams were already in.

You lose two old cars that are not ACO-legal after 2014, and make it possible for potentially 15 cars to win the races outright instead of two. That's a gain.

Originally Posted by TF110

You lost both those lmp1 teams now,

MMPR was gonna go anyways, leaving just Dyson and their old Lola, which they ran hard because their previous multi-million-dollar investments in Porsche RS Spyders wound up being paperweights and they could not get any manufacturer support. They were out entirely until Bentley hooked up with them for the Continental GT3s.

Originally Posted by TF110

and Audi, Porsche, Nissan, Rebellion cant race any of the events. But theres reason to believe all of them would be interested in using their lmp1's.

None of them were gonna show up aside from maybe Sebring and Daytona. So, let the two biggest races in the series be won easily by Audi or Porsche, who will then not show up again for the rest of the series. How does that help IMSA? It makes IMSA's existing return on investment problem that much bigger to absolutely no benefit to anyone save VAG, and VAG wasn't gonna give anything to IMSA for the priviledge. How is that a benefit?

Originally Posted by Rcz

IMSA should allow experimental P1s to race like the Nissan, the Delta wing was one you know.

Nope. Nissan is not gonna show, and all of the P1s would then claim they are experimental. They're gone, folks. Get used to it.

Originally Posted by Rcz

I do think DPs and P2s should be separate classes. In fact I think they should have done that at the start. They can both go for overall wins but should be scored differently from each other.

That was probably considered, but there was never enough of them in 2014 - they had six at Daytona, and that number never got bigger - and at Daytona, both ESM cars and both Mazdas broke, and MMPR ran away with it. MMPR led outright at Sebring before the car had power steering problems, and then they disappeared when MMPR closed. if Dyson had showed and/or Shank had added to the P2 crowd in 2014, there might have been a reason for that. But now, with just Shank's Ligier and one and a half Mazdas, its pointless.

[carbsmith]

DPs didn't have to go faster. Peter Baron in particular would have preferred to stay with what they had, factually speaking Shank would have, and I'm sure the guys who sold their cars entirely would have too. Everybody talks up class overlap with GTE but after they nerfed PCs into the dirt last year they ran the same pace as old DPs anyways while being significantly worse in traffic.

I'm not sure how Pickett is guaranteed to win a 24 hour race when they were consistently awful in enduros.

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

I would be surprised if the ByKolles or Rebellion R-One costs less than $2.5 million, and the most expensive DP out there is maybe $800,000.

I would be surprised if either number is even close. The amount of money burned on the Fords has to be pretty horrifying.

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

That immediately results in infuriated DP teams who desert the class rapidly for GT or PC cars. Result of that is that by the start of 2015 there are maybe five or six prototypes in both categories. Is that better than now? I think we all know the answer to that, and the answer is a resounding NO.

IMSA P is a six car class though. Okay, seven if you count cars that are slower than PCs.

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

make it possible for potentially 15 cars to win the races outright instead of two.

Actually they dumped three cars to make it possible for potentially four cars to win the races.

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

MMPR was gonna go anyways

I think it's pretty presumptuous to say that disinterest in the category and direction of the series had nothing to do with leaving racing. Remember he looked at IndyCar as well but apparently that didn't do it for him either.

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

None of them were gonna show up aside from maybe Sebring and Daytona.

It was persistently rumoured Porsche intended a dual P1 program, which considering how many US specific racing programs Porsche has had (Can-Am, 962C, CART, RS Spyder, GT America etc.) should not come across as flippant or unrealistic.

It's odd when I think about the long running argument that DPs have to run for overall wins or else they're being cheated of exposure—since when did DPs have significant sponsorship? Ganassi ran a pay driver for years (sometimes while getting paid by the series to boot) and now has absolutely nothing on the car but Ford. AXR had nothing until this season. WTR's sponsorship is from a personal connection. Whelen sponsored a GT car so top billing couldn't have been that important. Starworks, 8Star, GAINSCO, Shank, etc., you'd be hard pressed to come up with any significant external funding between them. The reality is nouveau-IMSA jacked up what was primarily a Pro-Am rent a ride class by forcing it into an expensive factory category to suit a small minority (okay screw it, Jim France's personal preference) Grand Am diehards will even tell you the same thing, although they try to pin the blame with ALMS naturally.

Notice as well how many of the DP teams bailed for PC which has the same speed and business model and seem to be perfectly okay with being a support class there. It works so well that they want to keep it exactly the same even though most of the fanbase is somewhere between apathetic and outright disdainful of its existence.

[Matt]

Whelen had sponsored Marsh Racing for many, mannnyyyy years in NASCAR competition. The reason Marsh Racing ran the GT Corvette is because they preferred to build their own cars rather than just buy a chassis and motor and just assemble it there.

[Rcz]

I think a separate P2 class would eventually improve, because right now they can't compete against a car with completely different rules. But if they could win in there own class, it would be easier because they are designed to race against each other.

And personally it would be interesting, ALMS in its past had different Prototype classes fighting for overall wins as well as there own class.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

DPs didn't have to go faster. Peter Baron in particular would have preferred to stay with what they had, factually speaking Shank would have, and I'm sure the guys who sold their cars entirely would have too. Everybody talks up class overlap with GTE but after they nerfed PCs into the dirt last year they ran the same pace as old DPs anyways while being significantly worse in traffic.

I'm not sure how Pickett is guaranteed to win a 24 hour race when they were consistently awful in enduros.


I would be surprised if either number is even close. The amount of money burned on the Fords has to be pretty horrifying.


IMSA P is a six car class though. Okay, seven if you count cars that are slower than PCs.


Actually they dumped three cars to make it possible for potentially four cars to win the races.


I think it's pretty presumptuous to say that disinterest in the category and direction of the series had nothing to do with leaving racing. Remember he looked at IndyCar as well but apparently that didn't do it for him either.


It was persistently rumoured Porsche intended a dual P1 program, which considering how many US specific racing programs Porsche has had (Can-Am, 962C, CART, RS Spyder, GT America etc.) should not come across as flippant or unrealistic.

It's odd when I think about the long running argument that DPs have to run for overall wins or else they're being cheated of exposure—since when did DPs have significant sponsorship? Ganassi ran a pay driver for years (sometimes while getting paid by the series to boot) and now has absolutely nothing on the car but Ford. AXR had nothing until this season. WTR's sponsorship is from a personal connection. Whelen sponsored a GT car so top billing couldn't have been that important. Starworks, 8Star, GAINSCO, Shank, etc., you'd be hard pressed to come up with any significant external funding between them. The reality is nouveau-IMSA jacked up what was primarily a Pro-Am rent a ride class by forcing it into an expensive factory category to suit a small minority (okay screw it, Jim France's personal preference) Grand Am diehards will even tell you the same thing, although they try to pin the blame with ALMS naturally.

Notice as well how many of the DP teams bailed for PC which has the same speed and business model and seem to be perfectly okay with being a support class there. It works so well that they want to keep it exactly the same even though most of the fanbase is somewhere between apathetic and outright disdainful of its existence.

Thanks! You basically replied for me One thing I wanted to add was brentjackson saying lmp1's are gone and to get used to it- not many are used to it in that sense, they moved to watching the wec. The funny part is they drop a class that now has booming interest to support their dp's. Wow, they had a few years in the spotlight, but are now going to lmp2 with some 'upgrades' that are mostly cosmetic. Nothing seems logical about that. And yes you can do lmp2-lmp1. Oreca 05-Rebellion R One is not a big jump. The biggest difference would be aero and engine type.