HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they

[john ruston]

The 6 bhrs is for cars up to 65 and Eau Rouge for obviously hookey cars with papers purported to be that period.Its JH dusbin for cars that should not really be allowed in but they have taken the money.Is that a decent explanation.

[terence]

Well yes,but you really shouldn't mince your word's.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I believe we are talking about the change from Group 2 as was, to Group 5 for saloons and the equivalent changes of groups for sportscars and GTs.

It would still not allow the RS1600 into the CTCRC because that was a Group 2 car and is not eligible for Post historics or Group 1 so the feared Mk1 Escort has to be the 1600 GT which runs as I recall.

As to the big yanks, they ran as Group 1 after 69 but before were Group 5.

But even so that has nothing to do with the HTP which could still be got for the car built to a specific group/class.

All too complex for my little brain, guess thats the trouble with living in and trying to recreate the past warts and all.

[Peter Mallett]

I don't think it's "warts and all" Al. I do see your point re the flexibility thing but as you know it doesn't matter where you set the regs, there'll be others with alternative interpretations.

BTW, I'm not certain my understanding is correct.

I do agree that the HTP could be a good thing for all historics but its like the MOT, it can only reflect the car on the day of inspection.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

That is the way I understand it, too. If it is an original competition car with a genuine history, than the requirement for participation in an international race should not apply. Is there anyone around with an understanding of how FIA thinks, who could clarify this?

If I remember correctly, one FIA inspector managed to block the issuance of an HTP for a Formula Junior a number of years ago, since the owner could not prove that his car (a one-off) had participated in a race listed in the international calender in period. He actually showed that it had participated in an international race (Djurgårdsloppet in Helsinki) but was still denied the papers, since he could not prove that the race was actually listed as international even though there were lots of non-Finnish participants. To me it sounded like some personal vendetta, but maybe it was according to the FIA rules

What I've never understood is why it is OK to take a production car that has never been on a circuit in its life and to modify that into a historic race car.
Whereas a car that really did race in period cannot be raced as a historic race car if its owner failed to take part in an international race at the time.

I sort of understand that international races were FIA licenced and national ones weren't, but that doesn't change history.

[john ruston]

Mr Morley-Not sure that common sense has a place in Historic Racing any longer!

[terence]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

What I've never understood is why it is OK to take a production car that has never been on a circuit in its life and to modify that into a historic race car.
Whereas a car that really did race in period cannot be raced as a historic race car if its owner failed to take part in an international race at the time.

I sort of understand that international races were FIA licensed and national ones weren't, but that doesn't change history.

Like a Ford Falcon or a Marcos? Falcon's only humiliated for rallying whilst the Marcos was done in 'retro'. Certainly take's some working out Peter!.Perhaps some of the original inspector's were easily 'persuaded'/convinced that the owners of the time were telling the truth.

[Tim Falce]

Despite all the answers I'm still none the wiser, but thanks anyway. Does anyone who may have too much time on their hands fancy putting up a list of the titles and what they apply too.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

According to Mike Mooney,there is no international comp history,he should know!

Terry I wish you would stop re-iterating myths like this. I have several emails from Mike Mooney copied to a number of interested parties which clearly demonstrate his view that Griffiths had international race history in period.

The issue has been not whether they competed but specification - in particular what width rear and what bonnet bulges and air intakes they had. There are very few photos of the cars taken at the events in which they competed, to confirm the position.

Herewith an edited extract from a note from one of our UK FIA scrutineers which is very clear:

The Grantura Engineering Ltd – TVR Griffith 200 was homologated on 1st August 1965 – Homologation recognition number 206.

Prior to this date, several TVR Griffith cars competed in Sports car events, including P. Simpson in the AMOC Silverstone International Martini Trophy on 24th July 1965. Cars competing prior to the date of homologation would have been classified as a Group 4 Sports car.

Four cars are believed to have competed Internationally after the date of homologation.

The first was on the 12th September 1965 with a Griffith driven by USA drivers D. Heinz and Tom Harmar in a round of the USSRC at Road America. This series included classes for Prototype cars and GTs. Any International status of this event is unclear but I would expect this race was not running to FIA Appendix J regulations and is therefore immaterial for our purposes.

The second known participation was of EHM Paul at Brands Hatch in the Redex Trophy race on 30th August 1965. This support race to the Guards Trophy was listed as a race for cars complying with Appendix J Group 3 regulations. However, the Redex Trophy race was not listed in the Official programme as being an International event and it has yet to be confirmed if this actual race was run under a National or International status permit.The second TVR No;106 on the entry list is believed to have non-started.If the Redex Trophy race at this meeting can be confirmed as being of International Status, Option 2 for any HTP applicant would be to replicate this actual car and the car would be classified as Period F - GTS.

The third and fourth known participations were at Aspern in Austria on 17th October 1965. The first of these two was driven by well known Austrian rally driver; Otto Karger. The second entrant at Aspern was P. Simpson whose car was road registered; FDU 500C. The TVR Club newsletter dated December 1965 had a race report by P. Simpson who drove the car on the road from Birmingham to and from Austria for the race. Option three therefore would be to Apply for an HTP with a standard shaped car and the car would again be classified as Period F - GTS.

Gerry Marshall also drove this works prepared car MMT 7C at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on 17th September 1966 (period G). Providing evidence can be found to confirm this support race at Oulton Park was of International status, option four would therefore be for an HTP applicant to apply for a similarly modified car in Period G - GTS

So to answer Tim's question as far as HTP is concerned. A car must be built to the specification in its FIA homologation papers issued in period. In order to be accepted by a scrutineer, a car must both comply and have run in an international FIA sanctioned event in period.

I think periods are:

FIA Period E 1/1/47 to 31/12/61
FIA Period F 1/1/62 to 31/12/65
FIA Period G 1/1/66 to 31/12/71
FIA Period H 1/1/72 to 31/12/76

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

So to answer Tim's question as far as HTP is concerned. A car must be built to the specification in its FIA homologation papers issued in period. In order to be accepted by a scrutineer, a car must both comply and have run in an international FIA sanctioned event in period.

I think periods are:

FIA Period E 1/1/47 to 31/12/61
FIA Period F 1/1/62 to 31/12/65
FIA Period G 1/1/66 to 31/12/71
FIA Period H 1/1/72 to 31/12/76

Many thanks for that Richard.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Like a Ford Falcon or a Marcos? Falcon's only humiliated for rallying whilst the Marcos was done in 'retro'. Certainly take's some working out Peter!.Perhaps some of the original inspector's were easily 'persuaded'/convinced that the owners of the time were telling the truth.

Even something like a Ford Cortina or MGB, you can take a car that has only ever been used for shopping and that can be modified into an acceptable historic race car.

But if you find something like a Turner or Rochdale that was built for and did dozens of races, in some cases winning many times, you can't race it as a historic unless one of the events it entered (or if they are being lenient a similar car) was an international event!

[Ted Walker]

If you do take a standard road car MGB or why, you have to turn it into an EXACT replica of the example that was raced internationally you cant "mix and match" And regarding the TVR I was the chap responsible for supplying the vital photo of Dr Paul at Brands international.

[rogerwills]

From the thread title, what is EDA?

[Tim Falce]

Possibly a made up initial to show how confused I am over it all.

[Al Weyman]

A company in Leeds called Engine Data Analisis who helped me out once :-)

[Tim Falce]

I think I may have been thinking of EDF as my electricity bill had arrived that day.

[terence]

[QUOTE=FISCracer;2568685]Terry I wish you would stop re-iterating myths like this. I have several emails from Mike Mooney copied to a number of interested parties which clearly demonstrate his view that Griffiths had international race history in period.


Four cars are believed to have competed Internationally after the date of homologation.

Key word is Believed, When I get the time I'll forward the mail I got from Mike.Perhaps that will dispell the 'myth'.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Even something like a Ford Cortina or MGB, you can take a car that has only ever been used for shopping and that can be modified into an acceptable historic race car.

But if you find something like a Turner or Rochdale that was built for and did dozens of races, in some cases winning many times, you can't race it as a historic unless one of the events it entered (or if they are being lenient a similar car) was an international event!

I've got one of each, frankly the HTP documents on the Cortina aren't worth the paper they're printed on, the cine footage of the Rochdale caning round Brands is nice though

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

From the thread title, what is EDA?

isn't it an offshoot of ERA, Eclectic Dastardly Automobiles?

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Like a Ford Falcon or a Marcos? Falcon's only humiliated for rallying whilst the Marcos was done in 'retro'. Certainly take's some working out Peter!.Perhaps some of the original inspector's were easily 'persuaded'/convinced that the owners of the time were telling the truth.

Oh dear I go away for the wekend and you lot........
First this one of Terry's.Homologation is homologation-not something that is done for a discipline.It simply states that a particular number of cars were built to the same spec.
The Marcos retro homologation rotates about the 'fact' that 100 identical cars were built in period and that the care has International history as a GT-it was accepted as such in period without being homologated.On that basis many years ago the HCC decided to go with it.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Even something like a Ford Cortina or MGB, you can take a car that has only ever been used for shopping and that can be modified into an acceptable historic race car.

But if you find something like a Turner or Rochdale that was built for and did dozens of races, in some cases winning many times, you can't race it as a historic unless one of the events it entered (or if they are being lenient a similar car) was an international event!

The purpose beind the International requirement is two fold.Firstly it had to be homolgated-so a manufacturers specification was laid down and we had a common standard and secondly in the case of non homologated cars it meant that the car had been through a period scrutineering to ensure that it complied with the relevant regulations at the time.
It ain't perfect but it is logical and as best as can be achieved really.Club cars-non International could have run to any spec. or regs. who knows/knew

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As I understand it, it is intended to cover cars built from new shells but to the specification of the original competition version. In other words a Mk1 Capri shell could be built into a RS2300/2600 or even a 3500 but it must be built to exactly the same spec as the original competition version.

No it has always been the case that you could take a stock homologated GT car and turn it into a race spec car . In the UK we resisted for years turning 850 Minis into 1275 Cooper S but as it had been done forever on the continent we lost that battle in about 2000 and the same overview applied to Touring cars.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

That is the way I understand it, too. If it is an original competition car with a genuine history, than the requirement for participation in an international race should not apply. Is there anyone around with an understanding of how FIA thinks, who could clarify this?

As I've posted shortly before this it makes perfectly good sense in that an International event has International rules which are known ad published both then and now.Some local,club or even NEAFP could have run to any regulations.You then get a situation where a car turns up to some set of regs known only to the Chief scrute of Bongo Bono land, runs away with the race and the whole thing disintegrates.
It is not a perfect solution but it is much better than just saying any old race car.

[zefarelly]

hence more LC's now than where ever made, likwise coopers, etc etc.

samep probably applies to anything competitive ?

As jeremy points out, its difficult to justify or prove period build spec for non homologated cars, just a nice personal touch if you have a car with some documented histoire/specification. whether anyone else believes it is irrelevant!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Thanks Jeremy.Can I assume that the events run in California were not international?
The rules state that if I change motor I would get HTP's which distracts from its History ,amazing!

How do they judge Pre War cars?By the same rules and could Brooklands be considered international?

Just thinking out loud.

No John you can't assume that California races were not International.You have to do what I do, start finding out.Check Motor Sport annual results list, they list all the major International results, go to the copies which you must have on period US magazines and check the results-were there foreign drivers taking part, if so it may have been International.
Check the listings in old MSA Blue books for the calendars of the period to see whether the event was listed.
Its all about specification in International events-not some old race spec. I am sure the VSCC would welcome you, they run old club races, the FIA -or its licencees run old International races.Why is that so difficult?
Pre war is very simple look a the entry list it usuaaly solves the question.
All this takes work , time and commitment I get fed up with people who fail to get this.