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Old 8 Oct 2006, 10:43 (Ref:1731712)   #1
Craig
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Diecast Decals - Surely Tobacco Ads Won't Kill Us?

Okay, something that's annoyed the hell out of me for aaages. Why the hell has there always been an issue with diecasts being produced with their correct (tobacco) liveries?

Even before the nanny state banned us from seeing the names of the various tobacco products on the cars when seen on TV and in the press there already seemed to be a ban on tobacco ads on models of these cars. What was that about? Was it an agreement between the diecast producers that made them feel good about themselves? Was it because they couldn't reach agreement with the tobacco companies to use their logos? Or was it, shock horror, goverment interference?

I am sorry, but what the hell? Do they seriously think us seeing the logos on these models will make us smoke? Do they not realise that we can see these same logos in shops and supermarkets? Hello?! These models are supposed to be accurate representations of history, how can we change history? Perhaps we should change this history books to remove mention of all the wars and conflicts we have been involved with in case it makes people violent?

Aaaargh. Sorry.
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 12:25 (Ref:1731830)   #2
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Models are classed as toys, for reasons I do not know. As toys are for young children they are not allowed to display tobacco ads.

This is however at odds with the statements on model boxes that they are unsuitable for folk under 16 years (or whatever it is).

It is a hateful rule, totally lacking in logic. We have all seen these cars on TV and in books and magazines for chrissakes!

Mattel go even further by not putting alcohol ads on their cars, thus confirming that their models are actually toys. Don't want kiddies suddenly getting the urge to drink now do we?
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 12:33 (Ref:1731842)   #3
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Of course, toy cars usually retail at £150+ Stupid stupid EU
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 12:43 (Ref:1731856)   #4
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Totally agree, Craig. It's PC paranoia. I don't smoke and don't like it, but how can you produce a model which purports to be a replica of a real racing car if some of the adverts are missing?
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 12:47 (Ref:1731862)   #5
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So why are they classed as toys? Surely there is some wording that can be added to the box to make it clear they're not for use as toys. Oh, wait, 'this product is not a toy', doesn't cut it? Ridiculous.
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 13:14 (Ref:1731891)   #6
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Define what makes a 'collectors model' and what makes a 'toy'. Price and quality aren't an issue. Something like Hot Wheels or Matchbox are obviously intended as toys but there's a huge collectors market for them as well. Look at some of the cheaper Onyx or Minchamps sold at race meetings, meant as models but often you'll see kids playing with them as toys.

I total agree with your frustration, and equally understand that tobacco sponsorship/advertising shouldn't be aimed at children. Without considering each model on it's own merrits it's a tough line to draw.

I think the issue with Matel and alcohol logos is down to US legislation. I was recently at a Nascar meeting and outside the track all the teams had merchandise trucks. The Jack Daniels sponsored team had the same merchandise as the other teams (t-shirts, models, mouse mats, etc) but they weren't allowed to serve anyone under 18 (21?).
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 13:37 (Ref:1731916)   #7
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haha we got ID'd going into the JD hostility at Talladega cos we weren't trusted not to see the logos and get drunk!

The one that always makes me chuckle is Mark Martin's stuff - it just seems plain wrong letting your kids walk round with Viagra logos all over their jacket/shirt/whatever. But... at least they are allowed to produce stuff with it on.

What makes a toy and what makes a model? I'd say if the thing comes in a box and is screwed to plinth then it is a model. I am pretty sure that the models aren't made to the same (toy safety) standards as toys so why then should they be covered by the same restrictions on logos?
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 15:13 (Ref:1731984)   #8
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Because common sense is a rare commodity in the world?
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 16:26 (Ref:1732026)   #9
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On the subject of re-writing history it's already happening. Nascar have removed all references to Winston Cup in their record books and replaced it with Nextel Cup.

Been doing a bit of Googling on the subject of tobacco logos. Found a very good post on Biante's website which sums up the 'these aren't toys' approach model makers want to take. That specifically refers to Australian legislation but I guess the EU and US law is much the same.

Also found a few comments on Minichamps and their removal of Rothmans logos. It seems that it wasn't Minichamp's decision, Philip Morris revoked permission for Minichamps to reproduce the Rothmans logo and demanded that the newly released Porsche 959 Paris-Dakar, Le Mans winning Porsche 956 and Williams FW16 be removed from sale.

Probably not much of an issue for motosports collectors but airplane model makers face similar problems with the use of a Luftwaffe swastika.
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 17:07 (Ref:1732054)   #10
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Well they're going to be busy then as the Nextel Cup is likely to change name again next year. *That* sums up the problem with attempting to change history.

Very interesting article on the Biante site, Nigel, thanks for the link. I'd like to think the other manufacturers were taking a similar approach and, at some point in the future, common sense will prevail. Sadly I doubt it. If only one of them had the money to test the situation in a court of law. I am sure that the situation would be resolved favourably if they did.

As for the Luftwaffe swastika - what the HELL? It's hardly likely to encourage people to sign up to fight in WW2, is it?
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 17:44 (Ref:1732076)   #11
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statements on model boxes that they are unsuitable for folk under 16 years
Im an illegal model collecter than...
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 17:54 (Ref:1732084)   #12
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Well, it's not a legal thing. More of a guideline thankfully.
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 17:57 (Ref:1732087)   #13
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The one that always makes me chuckle is Mark Martin's stuff - it just seems plain wrong letting your kids walk round with Viagra logos all over their jacket/shirt/whatever.
Seems entirely reasonable. Those kids might not exist without it. Letting them wear Durex, on the other hand...
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 19:01 (Ref:1732145)   #14
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 19:08 (Ref:1732160)   #15
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Generally you can buy the 'missing' logos as scale decals (although putting them on to a rare model can reduce its value). I bought some B&H logos to use on Jordans (the cars not the over inflated gobby one).
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 19:12 (Ref:1732164)   #16
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That's no way to talk about Eddie.
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Old 8 Oct 2006, 19:12 (Ref:1732165)   #17
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Seems entirely reasonable. Those kids might not exist without it. Letting them wear Durex, on the other hand...
I think they're missing a trick here, think how much their sales would increase if they were to hand out free hats and t-shirts to the worst of the brats at the circuits...
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Old 10 Oct 2006, 18:30 (Ref:1734367)   #18
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There are plenty of models will full tobacco livery.

I've recently bought the Exoto Jaguar XJR-9LM winner in full Silk Cut livery, officially, from Exoto.

The other team cars have no livery.

There does seem to be some exceptions, especially for models costing £120+.
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Old 11 Oct 2006, 08:23 (Ref:1734844)   #19
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I was told by a nice man from mini-champs that the official rule states that the difference between a toy and a model is that a toy is smaller than but including 1/18.

So you can get tobacco sponsored cars at say 1/12 scale but looking at some of the prices it'd be cheaper to buy the real thing.
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Old 13 Oct 2006, 02:28 (Ref:1736745)   #20
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Probably not much of an issue for motosports collectors but airplane model makers face similar problems with the use of a Luftwaffe swastika.
It could potentially be an issue if you want an accurate model of a Mercedes or Auto Union streamliner. Both cars carried swastikas on occasion in the mid to late thirties, and I know that some of the high-end resin kits have had to be released with the offending logo missing.

This is due to specific legislation in France and Germany regarding distribution of Nazi paraphanalia, so it makes no financial sense for a model company to make "continental Europe" and "rest of world" editions of the kits.

You're quite right about model aircraft - same principle applies. If you look on an Airfix box, you'll see that the plane is either angled so the wing covers the tail fin or that the artwork has been airbrushed. There are ways around it for the modelmaker, of course. Just as you can buy after-market JPS or Rothmans logos to apply to your Minichamp, so you can buy swastikas separately to make an accurate Messerschmitt. It just seems a little peculiar going up to the model shop counter to buy a whole sheet of dozens of Nazi logos. Makes the legislation somewhat self-defeating in my view.
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Old 14 Oct 2006, 08:47 (Ref:1737604)   #21
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It's been many years since I last sat down with an Airfix kit and glued it to my fingers, er sorry I mean assembled it carefully I did read somewhere that some kit makers get around the ban by including a decal kit with 2 seemingly random shapes that when applied side by side just happen to form a swastika. Of course that does help die-cast makers.
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