[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

"I could not have been more wrong about Webber/Vettel (delete as appropriate), it seems I overestimated him and know nothing about F1".

Surely you are not going to limit that to just the Red Bull drivers!!! ???

[senna12]

Vettel's performance at Monza, both in qualifying and the race itself, was like an exclamation point on a great year for him and the junior team. How much of that performance, particularly as the year progressed, can be attributed to the Ferrari engine?
I think that Renault were snookered a bit when they tried to go by the letter of the regs., and did not develop the motor in the interests of "reliability and safety", as the others did. By the time they smelled the coffee and Flav was through crying about it, the pot was almost empty. Both Renault and Red Bull suffered. I would think this would not be allowed to happen again, despite the rules.
This season will be Mark's biggest test, I think. He is up against probably the top rated young gun in the business. We should enjoy the fight while it lasts, because I suspect we may see Vettel and Alonso at Ferrari in either 2010
or '11.
I will say; qualifying, Vettel 11-6, and points, Vettel, 68-40.

[Adam43]

108 points for Red Bull next year? Last year they got 29. Only three teams scored more than 108 and only four drivers scored more than 68.

[Knowlesy]

History shows that big rule changes favour Newey led designs though.

But then history shows that big rule changes favour the big teams, rendering that statement obsolete. Err...

[Adam43]

History shows that Webber has never scored 40 points in a season, and Vettel 68 (but he is new).

I would not bet against a big move forward for Red Bull, but that is huge.

[Teretonga]

I think Red Bull may score 68 points in total this season on the following conditions:
1. Renault does get the concessions promised on the engine development front and they are reliable and successful.
2. The new Newey designed Red Bull chassis is both quick and reliable, not breaking down
3. RBR end up with an effective KERS package

In these circumstances I would expect Vettel to score 20% more highly than Webber over the whole season (end of year points), outqualify Webber at least 10 times, but that Webber will have his days when he has the measure of Vettel, in qualifying, or racing, or both.

[Knowlesy]

So are you saying Red Bull may score well if they have a good car?

[Bononi]

Yep and history shows so much more... now imagine him in a proper car or whatever they call a car that makes one better than others.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

So are you saying Red Bull may score well if they have a good car?

Yep. I am saying that. It seems overly simplistic.

But just having a good car is often not enough.

Williams on the basis of testing last winter and Robergs place in Australia looked as though it may be in for a good year in 2008.
Ultimately development didn't appear to keep pace with the others or something happened but in several races later in the year they really lost their way, especially in qualifying and it all went pear shaped.

I think the initial car was fine. Were the engines not Toyota's top shelf ? or was the problem closer to home. Rosberg also seemed to lose heart towards the end of the year. I respect sam Michael but there have been several seasons that started promisingly under his guidance but then they lost their way? So is there a problem somewhere in teh technical department.

Is it just money? Or is something else amiss?

I think RBR has learn't a lot. STR didn't have the same budget or technical expertise but got on top of the same chassis better than RBR did? Why was that? Drivers? Engines? Better technical application and managment?

RBR have some of STR's managment for 2009 so what is that all about? Is that why Berger felt disappointment in the air for 2009? His best driver and some of his managment people leaving and him having to rebuild again... just wasn't the same challenge and yet always feeling he had to kowtow to Didi's purse strings?

RBR should be in good shape for 2009, especially with the allowances for Renault's engine but we'll have to wait and see.
As for Webber and Vettel, I think Vettel has the edge but Webber is very strong mentally.
His physical training and fitness level is evidence of his internal discipline and the mental toughness. the latter is why he mananged to beat all his previous teammates. They just didn't have enough to beat Webber's mental game.

Vettel probably has that mental ability, and speed to burn, but RBR will be a more competitive environment than anything he experienced at STR.

[Knowlesy]

I think Vettel has the mental ability. He has overcome some hurdles already.

Firstly there was the Fuji incident in 2007, where he 'prevented Mark from winning the race'. Next race in China he has a great drive. Fortunate strategy yes, but he had to keep it together and this was still very early in his career.

The second one was his start to last season. People forget just how shocking his start was, constantly getting wiped out on lap one. Well, he overcame that nicely too.

He strikes me as someone who doesn't worry overly about anything and doesn't feel pressure too much. Maybe in time this will be his downfall, but I really doubt it.

Webber is quite strong mentally I agree. He's an Aussie after all. But on the other hand, I get the feeling when things start going against him he is a bit tetchy.

[Teretonga]

I wouldn't disagree with your assessment of Vettel.
I wasn't suggesting he was weak mentally or weaker than Webber, just that webber has always been strong mentally and that that was why he had been able to consistently deal with past team mates who in most cases appeared to lack the same mental discipline.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

He strikes me as someone who doesn't worry overly about anything and doesn't feel pressure too much. Maybe in time this will be his downfall, but I really doubt it.

Absolutely agree. That's the way I see it as well. Bruno Senna seems to be a similar kind of guy. At least his attitude reminds me somewhat of Vettel.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

He struggled to get on top of DC .

I haven't bothered reading these sort of threads for quite awhile - and I didn't get past page 2 of this one, but that has to be the single most ridiculous comment I have read in all my time on here!!

- surely there is a smiley you forget there, Knowlesy!


Once the car was competitive and didn't break, the first half of '08 showed what went on for nearly all of '07 and '08.

DC wasn't even on the same page.

[ralf fan]

Hmm the way I saw it they were pretty much even in 2007 with DC just edging it. And then Webber pretty much mauled a disinterested DC in 2008.

[shadow_man]

Originally Posted by Rick

I haven't bothered reading these sort of threads for quite awhile - and I didn't get past page 2 of this one, but that has to be the single most ridiculous comment I have read in all my time on here!!

- surely there is a smiley you forget there, Knowlesy!


Once the car was competitive and didn't break, the first half of '08 showed what went on for nearly all of '07 and '08.

DC wasn't even on the same page.

I agree, Red Bull carried DC for far too long. It seems a waste that the drive wasn't given to a member of the young driver program. You could see DC really wan't up too it anymore and should have been removed so that someone could give it a better go.

DC was a good driver on his day but hung around way too long, when you know it is over you should step aside not hang around like a bad smell (Damon Hill....).

[Bononi]

A waste ? DC has experience and that's crucial for the team, hence his job of consulting after retirement at RBR. I don't get this "Webber trashing this driver and that driver" speech. Webber is a fine racer and still there because of this. If he was better or not than his team mates is a matter of performance given a situation and circunstances. If Vettel end up being better than him, that's great, but else ? If Mark ends up in front, great, what else then ? Is there a reward for that, some sort of healing a wounded proud from part of his fans ? I don't think Webber needs to prove anything, and Vettel joining him will be a plus for everyone in the team, but that's my opinion.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Rick

I haven't bothered reading these sort of threads for quite awhile - and I didn't get past page 2 of this one, but that has to be the single most ridiculous comment I have read in all my time on here!!

- surely there is a smiley you forget there, Knowlesy!


Once the car was competitive and didn't break, the first half of '08 showed what went on for nearly all of '07 and '08.

DC wasn't even on the same page.

That was slightly tongue in cheek I admit. But he didn't exactly start hammering DC until 2008.

You agree with my Heidfeld assessment I take it? And that Vettel is an even scarier prospect?

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Williams on the basis of testing last winter and Robergs place in Australia looked as though it may be in for a good year in 2008.
Ultimately development didn't appear to keep pace with the others or something happened but in several races later in the year they really lost their way, especially in qualifying and it all went pear shaped.

I think the initial car was fine. Were the engines not Toyota's top shelf ? or was the problem closer to home. Rosberg also seemed to lose heart towards the end of the year. I respect sam Michael but there have been several seasons that started promisingly under his guidance but then they lost their way? So is there a problem somewhere in teh technical department.

Is it just money? Or is something else amiss?

They were losing too much downforce in the turns. Either they still didnt understand something about the distortion of the Bridgestones or theres still something out of sync in the aero department.

I think RBR has learn't a lot. STR didn't have the same budget or technical expertise but got on top of the same chassis better than RBR did? Why was that? Drivers? Engines? Better technical application and managment?

STR chose not to run as much forward ballast as RBR apparently, which influenced what aero parts they wanted to achieve a certain centre of aero pressure. RBR lost their way about half way through the year with one of their aero updates, and consequently STR rose up about the same time.

The engines of course had an effect. If the Ferrari was indeed 30hp more powerful then they can run longer gearing and more wing. Having a more rearward centre of pressure also gives more drag, which would be offset by having more power.

[mac]

Wow. There's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Can I vote this the lamest thread ever? Not the subject as it's a worthy topic of conversation - but the content...

Why is it that when a poster states that Webber will have difficulty with his limited preparations and the lost ballast due to KERS, the poster is derided for preparing excuses - yet when his list of team mate casualties is trotted out, said derider proceeds to claim that they were too old, too inexperienced, not fast enough, not good enough, not tough enough, injured, blah blah blah...?

Seems a touch hypocritical to me.

FACT 1: Mark Webber has been faster than EVERY team mate he has raced against - can't do anymore than beat the team mates he is pitted against.
FACT 2: For the large majority of his career, Webber has been plugging away in significantly uncompetitive machinery.
FACT 3: Mark struggled to adapt to the single tyre rule in the first half of 2005 (the only disappointing period of his career), but by the end of the year he was on top of it.
FACT 4: Sebastian Vettel is a superstar - forget about future tense, he already is.
FACT 5: For the last third of 2008, the Red Bull was a far worse car than the Toro Rosso - Vettel has said this, after driving both.
FACT 6: In just two seasons, Vettel's results are superior to Webber's.
FACT 7: Mark Webber DOES have significant challenges to face ahead of the 2009 season - namely a severely broken leg and acclimatising to a completely different car designed to meet a completely different set of regs in an incredibly short time.

Given the enthusiasm with which many seem to take great pleasure in finding reasons to denigrate Webber, this is going to be a closely watched battle in here. One thing is for sure - any half chance you lot (and you know who you are) get, you will be all over him. With reason or, as is usually the case, without reason.

The bad news for Webber fans out there is that Vettel is no myth - he is the genuine article. He is purely and simply mega.

However, I think a lot of people may be surprised by just how close this fight may be.

Personally, I think qualifying will be very tight - Webber's greatest challenge will be footing it with Vettel for full race distances.

Vettel may edge it - Webber may edge it, but I've got a feeling that the pair could actually forge quite a strong and formidable team.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Bononi

A waste ? DC has experience and that's crucial for the team, hence his job of consulting after retirement at RBR. I don't get this "Webber trashing this driver and that driver" speech. Webber is a fine racer and still there because of this. If he was better or not than his team mates is a matter of performance given a situation and circunstances. If Vettel end up being better than him, that's great, but else ? If Mark ends up in front, great, what else then ? Is there a reward for that, some sort of healing a wounded proud from part of his fans ? I don't think Webber needs to prove anything, and Vettel joining him will be a plus for everyone in the team, but that's my opinion.

[Pro Racer]

should be a good battle to watch but thats it, it dosn't really matter who is infront unless your a Webber basher.

[Dutton]

I expect Vettel to finish the table ahead in points (possibly by a fair margin). I imagine Webber will be involved in more race dramas, be they mechanical or accidents, and this may prove a significant factor in Vettel's points lead should it be quite big.

I expect qualifying to be pretty even in the grand scheme.

All in all, I expect Vettel to have the beating of Mark in the races. I don't mean that he will beat Mark everytime, nor do I mean he will finish 30 seconds ahead most of the time. I do, however, expect it to be a general consensus that Webber has been bested.

Webber is a thoroughly respectable driver, but Vettel is blatantly impressive. I don't see how Webber really has a chance, overall.

[Matt]

I have to ask, no offense intended, but why does nearly every Australian think Webber is God's gift to racing, and that he is the best there ever was? You didn't see all the US members all gung ho when Scott Speed arrived, nor nearly any other driver(aside from possibly Hamilton and the Brits).

[mac]

Originally Posted by Matt

I have to ask, no offense intended, but why does nearly every Australian think Webber is God's gift to racing, and that he is the best there ever was? You didn't see all the US members all gung ho when Scott Speed arrived, nor nearly any other driver(aside from possibly Hamilton and the Brits).

Or the Dutch and Verstappen, or the Canadians and Villeneuve...

I don't think he is God's gift to racing - I don't think many reasonable Australian racing fans would suggest that.

I think he's quite good - very good in fact. However, with him never having raced a truly competitive car, I guess we'll never know just how good he is.

As I said above, I think Vettel could be God's gift to racing . Maybe this season will tell us just how good Mark is...

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Matt

I have to ask, no offense intended, but why does nearly every Australian think Webber is God's gift to racing, and that he is the best there ever was? You didn't see all the US members all gung ho when Scott Speed arrived, nor nearly any other driver(aside from possibly Hamilton and the Brits).

Because it is bred into Australians, they beleive they are the best at every sport they participate in which as we all know isnt the case. Yes Australia is usually pretty competitive, even dominant in a couple of sports but it isnt the ultimate force in the sporting world that it likes to people to think. IMO of course. Now back to the topic.