Next step in the evolution of GT/production racing

[andy97]

I see that the BMW M6 GT3 cars is to be marketed at Euros 380K.

Crikey, I can't see national GT series based on GT3 being sustainable if those are the prices for cars.

[Akrapovic]

That's only slightly more than the current cars isn't it? 458 is (or was) €350k

[andy97]

Not sure, but I can see national series going GT4 only soon, if those are the prices. There's a limited number of people/ companies that can afford/ justify that, I'd have thought.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by andy97

I see that the BMW M6 GT3 cars is to be marketed at Euros 380K.

Crikey, I can't see national GT series based on GT3 being sustainable if those are the prices for cars.

Isn't this nearly double the price that GT3 cars were originally supposed to be?

[Deleted]

Yeah but 2005 SRO GT3 concept has nothing to do with 2015 GT3 reality anymore, expect for bop base lining

It was supposed to be third division GT category for rich amateurs driving cheap lower end performance vehicles in club ish circumstances, not the global headliner class with pros and factories

[andy97]

And like the Dinosaurs their success will come to an end because they cannot sustain themselves!

Isn't the LMP3 category cost capped at circa 200k euros per car? And probably quicker? Not sure?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by andy97

And like the Dinosaurs their success will come to an end because they cannot sustain themselves!

Isn't the LMP3 category cost capped at circa 200k euros per car? And probably quicker? Not sure?

Pah, P3... try TCR... , as fast as GT4, but cost capped at €90k, multi-make, and actually with a chance to woe importers into giving you (limited) support.

[Deleted]

It's not the greatest comparison, since when GT3 eventually does die, it will be because of self inflicted wounds. Non avian dinosaurs succeeded for hundreds of millions years, making our little baby community rather sorry looking in comparison. They survived Triassic-Jurassic extinction period and they probably would still be here (on top of the birds) if it wasnt for the K-Pg asteroid of doom and climatic changes, out of their control.

LMP3 is designed to be couple seconds faster than LMGTE, but have so far struggled to keep up with even them in Ginetta's helm. CN has better price-performance tag but are under subscribed and underrated. But, with the power of ACO behind, P3 does seem to have future ahead in some form

Cheap all-bop TCR is basically GT3 2005 v2 so its not surprise to see it taking off, but how long before that takes touring car top spot and transforms itself into obscurity...

[Coach Ep]

What is TCR?

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

What is TCR?

Lotti's latest touring car enterprise.

Edit - Gotcha Speed-King

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

What is TCR?

Marcello Lotti's new (supposed) magic bullet touring car formula: http://tcr-series.com/

Basically taking the GT3 approach of a cheap bring-what-you-want-BoP-series to touring car racing. The first year has been a bit rocky, but apparently plenty of manufacturers are signing up to it with customer car programs.

Especially in smaller or crisis-shaken European markets I can see them replacing the national GT-series. It's already happening in the BeNeLux, but I wouldn't bet against a similar development in Spain (Spanish GT died a few years ago, leaving a bit of a void to fill) and France.

The one country where I don't see them making much of a dent is the UK, so maybe this should be moved to the "general sportscars" or "GT3 manufacturers" thread?

[Coach Ep]

Thx.

Beats me why all this touring car stuff ends up in the GT section lately anyway...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Beats me why all this touring car stuff ends up in the GT section lately anyway...

Well, with GT3 becoming more and more untenable for many European markets, there is a big question about what will replace it eventually - and as I see it there are at least four rivaling concepts:

A) GT4 or another lower costs GT-formula
B) Some form of Silhouette formula, like TA2 or MARC GTC.
C) Prototypes (CN or P3)
D) Touring Cars, i.e. TCR.

So with national GT3 series potentially going the way of the Dodo, that is actually an interesting topic for the "Sportscar and GT"-forum, especially when the alternatives to a switch towards touring cars would very well belong in this forum.

[Deleted]

But unlike GT3, the Dodo did nothing wrong, it wasn't it fault that its body features were useless and that the evil men came, in fact -- oh maybe I'll just stop on rambling about extinct avian and non avian dinos for a while

You know there could be demand for new thread to be created for discussion about the next step in evolution in GT/production racing.

CN is surely the least likely out of that list Speed?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

But unlike GT3, the Dodo did nothing wrong, it wasn't it fault that its body features were useless and that the evil men came, in fact -- oh maybe I'll just stop on rambling about extinct avian and non avian dinos for a while

The Dodo responded to outside evolutionary pressures (or the lack thereof). As did GT3.

CN is surely the least likely out of that list Speed?

CN seems to be a bit of a stop-gap thing. Right now CN is probably the top dog class in Belgium and Portugal, but both are in line to get a TCR-series next year. And I suppose if GT Tour in France were to go teats up, VdeV would inherit the top spot as well, at least for a while.

You know there could be demand for new thread to be created for discussion about the next step in evolution in GT/production racing.

Not a bad idea, actually. Maybe the mods can split it off from this thread starting with Post #133?

[TF110]

GT3 wont die as long as there are buyers. Once those dry up, so will GT3. Then what? GT4? That will increase in cost once its the 'lead' class. It shouldnt even be called GT3 anymore. Its just a name that stuck once GT1&2 died or got renamed. So I wonder if the class folds or evolves?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TF110

GT3 wont die as long as there are buyers. Once those dry up, so will GT3.

"Drying up" is actually a good metaphor. GT3 won't go away from one day to the other and should be with us in some shape or form at least until 2020.
What we will see is some countries dropping it altogether while others might make it one class in a multiclass series like the Brits and Italians already did. With that model you really only need half a dozen cars or so to make a viable class and unless the bottom drops out of the economy again, or there is a new super-popular class that hoovers up all the potential entrants, it should be possible to find that many people/teams in most current GT3 markets. That raises the question, what you put in the other classes. GT4 is an option, Italy is pretty successful with a mixed make Cup-class, so that's another option.

Then what? GT4? That will increase in cost once its the 'lead' class.

That's pretty much inevitable, but it'd be a while before that would become a serious problem. And right now GT4 seems to have a bunch of problems and very little appeal to new teams, so I really don't think it's in the "pole position" so to speak.

It shouldnt even be called GT3 anymore. Its just a name that stuck once GT1&2 died or got renamed. So I wonder if the class folds or evolves?

GT3 already evolved from being an entry level amateur class into the one-size-fits-all GT-class of the world. I wonder in what direction it even still can evolve. Maybe Ratel will "reboot" it eventually, starting with €200.000-cars again?!

[Mt. Lynx]

It can eventually be possible to split the GT3 cars into two classes. SRO has had this suggestion up in the air for years, so in case of emergeny, they could possibly catch those balls and put them in action.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

GT3 already evolved from being an entry level amateur class into the one-size-fits-all GT-class of the world. I wonder in what direction it even still can evolve. Maybe Ratel will "reboot" it eventually, starting with €200.000-cars again?!

Im not talking about the price point. But I do think If the class evolves, its doubtful it gets cheaper. The manufacturers want to sell cars and theyre doing a good job of it so far.

I feel that in the future the manufacturers will want to race their latest tech. What happens when we get hybrid sportscars? Like I said in the tusc thread, the NSX will be the first hybrid sportscar/exotic to come at a reasonable price. ~150k is what youd pay for a Porsche GT3, Nissan GTR or Audi R8, but the Honda has a hybrid. What happens if Honda wants to race that car but use its hybrid? Will 'GT3' become that class or will it be GTE? Its going to happen soon, so I wonder if someone like Ratel goes and tries to get a series with hybrid GT's that are affordable (not your 918's and LaFerrari's).

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by TF110

(not your 918's and LaFerrari's).

Shouldn't they be somewhere in the mix too?

[MitchZ06]

Million dollar hypercars need a new GT1 class, not likely to happen....

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

GT3 already evolved from being an entry level amateur class into the one-size-fits-all GT-class of the world. I wonder in what direction it even still can evolve. Maybe Ratel will "reboot" it eventually, starting with €200.000-cars again?!

If you're gonna reboot everything and kill all eglible machinery, why then just not make GT4 the new GT3. It's what GT3 was supposed to be (and was in 2005-2006/7), slow and cheap and mostly for amateurs. It even has the same wildly bouncing bop crap as GT3 doesn't it, all the way from FIA tests with designated drivers and all? People will commit to it if it's the only option, besides the ACO alternative that is. Then 10-15 years later when the class has transformed into another unsustainable and expensive mess where every manufacturer keeps throwing all the dollars in the same basket, you can reboot it again. It's like the superhero movies for dumb masses.

The lack of proper multi class structures and regulations is what kills everything.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by TF110

Im not talking about the price point. But I do think If the class evolves, its doubtful it gets cheaper. The manufacturers want to sell cars and theyre doing a good job of it so far.

I feel that in the future the manufacturers will want to race their latest tech. What happens when we get hybrid sportscars? Like I said in the tusc thread, the NSX will be the first hybrid sportscar/exotic to come at a reasonable price. ~150k is what youd pay for a Porsche GT3, Nissan GTR or Audi R8, but the Honda has a hybrid. What happens if Honda wants to race that car but use its hybrid? Will 'GT3' become that class or will it be GTE? Its going to happen soon, so I wonder if someone like Ratel goes and tries to get a series with hybrid GT's that are affordable (not your 918's and LaFerrari's).

I think the GT3 rules are free enough to accomodate hybrids. Any advantage they might have, will be eradicated by the BOP. That could be both what speaks for GT3 with hybrids, and against it.
On the plus side you get easy access. Mfg's can basically show up with anything, get BoP:d, and race on fairly equal terms.
On the downside, any mfg wanting to showcase new tech, will surely be deterred by the very same BOP that allows them to race.

[Speed-King]

Looks like Lexus don't want to put all their eggs in the GT3-basket and are also developing a lower-spec customer version of the RC-F:

http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...10350&Itemid=1

There's more and more cars around that fit pretty much right in the middle between GT3 and GT4 - I think sooner or later someone will try to form a class out of those. Probably won' be Ratel, though, as that'd undercut GT3.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Looks like Lexus don't want to put all their eggs in the GT3-basket and are also developing a lower-spec customer version of the RC-F:

http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...10350&Itemid=1

There's more and more cars around that fit pretty much right in the middle between GT3 and GT4 - I think sooner or later someone will try to form a class out of those. Probably won' be Ratel, though, as that'd undercut GT3.

This car (its called the 'RC F CCS-R' version) ran at this year's Pikes Peak hill climb. Its going to fill in for the defunct IS-F CCS-R.