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Old 19 Oct 2011, 14:54 (Ref:2973879)   #1
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Mercedes F-duct front wing

Mercedes are currently experimenting with a new front wing concept. Possible Red Herring or the new Black?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95526

Is it already too late for the others?

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/174214/..._for_2012.html
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 17:41 (Ref:2973939)   #2
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could be interesting but are they giving away too much about their 2012 plans? i suppose if this is just a natural progression of the F-duct then all the teams could already be on to it.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95527

also came across an article about Newey today discussing the possibility of Red Bull development for the remainder of 2011 while balancing the need to not give too many insights for 2012.

a game of cat and mouse at its best!
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 17:53 (Ref:2973942)   #3
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could be interesting but are they giving away too much about their 2012 plans?
As Martin Whitmarsh said in the second article. "If you make a start now, it's already too late,'' the Mclaren team boss confirmed..

Which is probably why Mercedes were so confident of running it when they did. Their whole design philosophy will be based around that front wing. But they will know if it worked or not, even on their current car.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 21:31 (Ref:2974021)   #4
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but the flip side is that everyone else will know that it works too and almost certainly im sure they would rather be seeing it now rather than in the winter or worse in Australia.

for sure much of the chassis work will be done by now so its hard and expensive to change that now, but i suppose at the very least if you can't copy it (or find a clever way to integrate it) you have given you opposition and entire off season to a) either figure it out, or b) time enough to get it banned for next year.
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 22:18 (Ref:2974041)   #5
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that is clever. am i the only one who would like to see a renewed Schumacher and a winning Mercedes GP team?
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Old 19 Oct 2011, 23:18 (Ref:2974066)   #6
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but the flip side is that everyone else will know that it works too and almost certainly im sure they would rather be seeing it now rather than in the winter or worse in Australia.

for sure much of the chassis work will be done by now so its hard and expensive to change that now, but i suppose at the very least if you can't copy it (or find a clever way to integrate it) you have given you opposition and entire off season to a) either figure it out, or b) time enough to get it banned for next year.
I doubt that it would be banned under current or 2012 regulations. Mercedes know full well that no team are going to risk abandoning one philosophy to start another philosophy this late in the game. And, when you think about it, the first test isn't really that far away. Plus, Mercedes are already testing their new stuff now, so if you want to do what they're doing, you're already six months behind.

BTW. Did you see the front wing on Alonso's Ferrari? Look familiar?
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 11:13 (Ref:2974236)   #7
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I doubt that it would be banned under current or 2012 regulations. Mercedes know full well that no team are going to risk abandoning one philosophy to start another philosophy this late in the game. And, when you think about it, the first test isn't really that far away. Plus, Mercedes are already testing their new stuff now, so if you want to do what they're doing, you're already six months behind.

BTW. Did you see the front wing on Alonso's Ferrari? Look familiar?
And yet, last year the F duct managed to make it way on to cars mid season, and that required a hat load more work than a front wing change.

Granted there are aerodynamic complexities elsewhere on the car when changing the wing that make it more complicated - but more complicated that having to install an F-duct?
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 11:43 (Ref:2974252)   #8
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And yet, last year the F duct managed to make it way on to cars mid season, and that required a hat load more work than a front wing change.

Granted there are aerodynamic complexities elsewhere on the car when changing the wing that make it more complicated - but more complicated that having to install an F-duct?
Something like the F-duct was likely to work on any car, no matter what philosophy was behind it. And, as we know, some F-ducts didn't work as well as others did because they hadn't done as much wind tunnel testing as others had.

And now.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95536
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 13:16 (Ref:2974304)   #9
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that is clever. am i the only one who would like to see a renewed Schumacher and a winning Mercedes GP team?
Prefer to see Rosberg and a winning Mercades GP team

I may be wrong, one of the reports said that it was tried in Japan so i'm not sure if that carried over to Korea, but even if it didn't, Nico posted Mercades fastest lap of the race, which was 1.9 seconds slower than Sebastians actual fastest lap of the race. I think it's going to take alot more than a device that increases top speed of 5-8kph on the straights and a bit more downforce through the corners.
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 13:40 (Ref:2974316)   #10
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I think it's going to take alot more than a device that increases top speed of 5-8kph on the straights and a bit more downforce through the corners.
Indeed it will. But there's not a lot that they can do with this years car, other than to see if new bits they had to it make the difference that is expected of them.
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 15:34 (Ref:2974354)   #11
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Indeed it will. But there's not a lot that they can do with this years car, other than to see if new bits they had to it make the difference that is expected of them.
Indeed.

But we see these internet stories about how a team like Mercades have "stolen a march" over the competition for next year, but generally it never really pans out like that. Only twice in recent history has a team seemingly come out with a new car that no one saw coming from the previous season and that would be, imo, McLaren 1998 and Brawn in 2009.
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 20:29 (Ref:2974473)   #12
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Indeed.

But we see these internet stories about how a team like Mercades have "stolen a march" over the competition for next year, but generally it never really pans out like that. Only twice in recent history has a team seemingly come out with a new car that no one saw coming from the previous season and that would be, imo, McLaren 1998 and Brawn in 2009.
The Mclaren was very similar to the 1997 car. Newey had been with the team some 6 months and Mclaren had managed to extricate themselves from a Goodyear contract and were with probably the best tyres that season, the Bridgestones.

The Brawn was just a complete and utter shock, I saw the testing times in Barcelona and thought they were single lap runs. I don't think anyone within F1 saw that coming.

If we're going to say the MP4/13 then I want to add Ferrari's F2004, because I remember Autosport that winter being so disappointed by that car and how unadventurous it was compared to Williams with the walrus nose and the Mclaren MP4/18.
Yet I think it was even better than the 2002 car.
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 21:19 (Ref:2974487)   #13
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The Bridgestone 2004 tyre gave Ferrari their dominance that year.
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Old 20 Oct 2011, 23:33 (Ref:2974533)   #14
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The Bridgestone 2004 tyre gave Ferrari their dominance that year.
Something that could never be said about Bridgestone's 2005 tyre.

The Brawn car was very good for half the season, and Button made hay while the sun shone. However, too much time spent on trying to get Barrichello up to speed cost them dearly in the second half of the season.

Already we are hearing stories about F-duct front wings and loopholes left in the exhaust system regulations. Ferrari even had something very similar to a Red Bull front wing on Alonso's Ferrari! 2012 - Bring it on!
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Old 21 Oct 2011, 17:47 (Ref:2974825)   #15
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I have read the Autosport article, and a picture of the Mercedes nose shows a ventilation hole and then diagrams by Piola shows how the venting works to feed the front wing.
Now F1 designers can look at other cars and understand everything about their design philosophy, but what I always struggle with, is how does Piola get what I would imagine to be secret details of cars.
Without having the Mercedes design data, or inspecting the front wing at minute detail, how would he possibly know?
Is this some mis-information by Mercedes, bearing in mind that we're in October and the 2012 season starts in 5 to 6 months time. After all, when cars are unveiled in January, they rarely carry the full aero package they will run at the season opener.
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