[Driver] Sutil 2012?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Dan Fielden

Sutil has more of a place in F1 than, Maldonado, D'Ambrosio, Trulli, Liuzzi, and stickin me neck out here a bit but one of the torro rosso drivers? I kno Ricciardo/Vergne would be obvious replacements but i just think he's better than either or.

Wasn't a petrov fan in 09 but he's convinced me

He doesn't have any more claim to an F1 drive than any of those based on ability really.

Only the Bull Juniors have the reps of potential aces about them, Sutil would simply be in the same bracket as those guys you mention. To be fair the Trulli of 10-12 years ago would be waaay above Sutil in terms of performance anyway.

Pastor has given me serious impression that given a better car he would actually be a points scorer quite regularly.

Hulkenberg would also. Sutil has had plenty of races where he/his car could;ve achieved much more, one only needs to look at Di Resta's season to see that.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

Yet since 1986, Prost, Piquet, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button and Vettel have all been champions without making any impact on the feeder series.

Maybe their talent was so apparent that they were given an F1 drive before being given the chance of F3000/GP2?

[Carsandmotorracing]

Originally Posted by Mekola

Why not (A)LMS and IndyCars as other options...

Ya those are good options to, just getting ideas out there

V8 Supercars

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I know Alonso won a F3000 race, but there are so many champions in the feeder series who have never really impressed beyond it.
F3000: Danner, Capelli, Modena, Moreno, Alesi, Comas, Fittipaldi, Badoer, Panis, Bouillion, Sospiri, Muller, Zonta, Montoya, Heidfeld, Junquiera, Wilson, Bourdais, Wirdheim and Liuzzi
Yet since 1986, Prost, Piquet, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button and Vettel have all been champions without making any impact on the feeder series. In fact of those listed, only Hill and Alonso raced in F3000. Only Hamilton is the exception...

The statistics will say that F3000 failed to produce F1 winners and champions but it's still way too simplistic an argument I think.

There was plenty of classy drivers in the history of F3000, some who weren't even series titlists.

There was easily half a dozen, maybe even double that, that were prevented from making a bigger impact in F1 because of some circumstances not of their making.

Then there were others who made poor decision team wise, which may have been either theirs of their managers fault.

[Marbot]

The simple fact is that you become a successful F1 driver through circumstance.

Alain Prost wasn't ever into motor sports until, one day, he drove a kart whilst on holiday, at the age of 14...............

How many more Prost's are out there?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The simple fact is that you become a successful F1 driver through circumstance.

Alain Prost wasn't ever into motor sports until, one day, he drove a kart whilst on holiday, at the age of 14...............

How many more Prost's are out there?

The first line of your post sums it up, all the bits and pieces have to fit together at the same time...

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Maybe their talent was so apparent that they were given an F1 drive before being given the chance of F3000/GP2?

I don't disagree, nor with Marbot about circumstances etc.
I wonder if Lewis would have jumped GP2 if Mclaren weren't in control of his career.
Senna was offered a full paid F3 season by Mclaren but refused it because he wanted to be in charge of his career.
Maybe back in the 80's, being there were less feeder championships, drivers were spotted earlier.
In the UK there was only one route, FF1600, FF2000, F3, F2 then F1.
Now there are so many potential routes to F1 and you almost need a manufacturers support to progress

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I wonder if Lewis would have jumped GP2 if Mclaren weren't in control of his career.

It's something that we'll never know, and the cream usually rises to the top, but we could turn that on it's head and say, maybe Lewis would never have made it to GP if McLaren hadn't controlled his career?

I'm sure that Lewis would have made it of course, but i have to say that, however a driver makes it there, it can't be right or wrong, be it missing, or doing GP2 as an example. As long as they get there, thats the main thing.

[chunterer]

Senna's paid drive offer from Ronzo was for F2 in 1984, not F3

I suspect that was a typo though hws as you seem to be the oracle on Ayrton's career history?

I know we're waay ot here, but it would have been interesting if Senna had done F2, as that paid drive would likely have been a Marlboro Onyx March.....

As for Sutil, the boy done ok today dunee?

Can't have hurt his cause, seeing as he and Di Resta were both starting from a clean sheet round there.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunterer

As for Sutil, the boy done ok today dunee?

Can't have hurt his cause, seeing as he and Di Resta were both starting from a clean sheet round there.

He did ok today.

Can't help but feel, from the smile on Vijay's face when asked about bringing the announcement date forward, that he's already made up his mind.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Can't help but feel, from the smile on Vijay's face when asked about bringing the announcement date forward, that he's already made up his mind.

I think that he would have to be madder than a mad thing to not stick with the same race drivers.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I think that he would have to be madder than a mad thing to not stick with the same race drivers.

I don't think he will.

[chunterer]

Nor do I, but will Hulkenberg offer a great deal more speed than Sutil?

When the chips are down I would say yes he could.

[p-matt]

For me, Hulkenberg would be the given in FI's line-up next year. I feel di Resta has been overrated this year, although I'd probably lean towards him over Sutil.

I don't see where Sutil can go now. Williams and FI are looking increasingly less likely. He has no chance at Renault for obvious reasons. Maybe a Lotus seat or a Merc/McLaren 3rd driver role?

[cds_uk]

Sutils options for next year? DTM all the way.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by chunterer

you seem to be the oracle on Ayrton's career history?

Unsure whether to be flattered or insulted...
I have access to the same information as anybody else, personal memories of the Senna that everybody else watched, a collection of newspaper and magazine clippings throughout his career and hypothetical musings.

Re: Hamilton, yes I think he would have made it to F1 anyway, but he may have had a more conventional apprenticeship once he arrived. I am almost certain that a majority of his problems have come because he has not driven for a lower order team, he's been essentially in the one of the top 2 teams throughout his career, and being beaten by Button this season has disrupted his self-belief system.
Much is made in the press about his recent break-up, but most of the drivers have been through break-ups in their careers, personally I think it's a convenient excuse. What worries me more, is that Simon Fuller is moving in to help....

[Marbot]

Di Resta is probably going to keep his seat, according to this article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/form...e/15504829.stm

Hulkenburg is said to be favourite for the other seat, but I really don't know what he's done to deserve it.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Nor do I, but will Hulkenberg offer a great deal more speed than Sutil?

When the chips are down I would say yes he could.

But if we're saying that Hulk can offer the same amount of speed now, dispite having 4 less seasons experience then he's the guy to go for imo. He's the one likely to get faster, Adrian isn't.

[djinvicta]

How about Sahara? Do you not think they have 1/2 a say in this? Plus, the bad press for Sutil re the alleged assault has not helped his case

[chunterer]

Well yeah, obviously they will have an influence but they may think it better to let the current management run the team and sort the driver deals for a while.

[TF110]

Sutil slower than Hulkenberg? I doubt it. There'll be no improvement. He just brings sponsorship money. Sutil doesn't, he's getting paid. Sure, he'll get paid as well, but he'll bring in money. Sutil has outperformed both DiResta and his other previous teammates. I don't see Force India going anywhere until they get more money for development. Not some guy named Hulkenberg.

[Born Racer]

I believe Sutil brings quite a lot of money.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by TF110

Sutil slower than Hulkenberg? I doubt it. There'll be no improvement. He just brings sponsorship money. Sutil doesn't, he's getting paid. Sure, he'll get paid as well, but he'll bring in money. Sutil has outperformed both DiResta and his other previous teammates. I don't see Force India going anywhere until they get more money for development. Not some guy named Hulkenberg.

Yeh I believe it's the other way round. Sutil brings alot of money from his drinks sponsorship, whereas i'm not so sure Hulk brings much money at all, hence the reason he was out of a drive for this season. Williams wanted dollar, Hulk refused and wanted to be kept on for his talent alone.

Looks like his patience has paid off, not to mention the great timing of investment for Force India (Sahara).

Selby

[MJones94]

It seems as though Di Resta's seat in Force India for next year is secure so it is between Hulkenburg and Sutil. I think Hulkenburg will get the seat over Sutil as there has been some speculation over Sutil talking with people from Williams. In my mind I would say that Hulkenburg is faster and Sutil needs a new start with a different team to rejuvenate his career.

In my eyes Sutil is a very competent driver and the type who will bring top 10 finishes regularly, much like Nico Rosberg. However for what ever reason we have not seen many outstanding drives from him besides a potential 4th place Monaco 2008 and 4th Monza 2009. I believe he has been at Force India for long enough now and if he is to develop his career further then he will need to change to another team to get a new dimension on things.

If he does go to Williams next year then he will bring a lot of funding but if he partners Raikkonen then he may get outshone by the Finn and may fall out of F1 altogether. I think this because if he moves to Williams to partner Kimi then everyone will assume that Kimi is the number one driver so Sutil will be on the back foot immediately. Chances are he probably would get out performed by Kimi and then he may be kicked out of F1 by default or go to a lower team like Liuzzi and look how that turned out.

[chunterer]

Why would he be at Williams alongside Raikkonen?

Maldonado brings more money that Sutil as it is, plus he's done a good enough job foir them to see Sutil wouldn't offer any more performance.