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Old 3 Nov 2012, 21:44 (Ref:3162034)   #1
Magistrate
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Magistrate should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A reoccurring issue..

After reading through several threads, it has become apparent that their are a mixture of issues which people have with the joker lap.

I personally find it is something which adds some entertainment and it splits the tactically (and fast!) drivers from the nuggets who think you can win a race by throwing it around a track carelessly.

So, what are / where are the issues?
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Old 3 Nov 2012, 23:26 (Ref:3162079)   #2
The Dozer
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Because the man wit not so much money and not as fast a car as the big boys but is as good if not better driver realisticly can't get a good start and defend his race and have his day . . . The joker lap came about more or less because the so called big spenders couldn't win every race . . . The joker splits up the race and makes it look like a rallysprint until the last lap . . . I both as a racer and a spectator pay to race and to see racing not a drag race to the line on the last lap . . .
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Old 3 Nov 2012, 23:55 (Ref:3162089)   #3
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Then to use your rather daft example, you would prefer to watcha drag arce to the first corner, which is exactly what it used to be! Gollop ONLY went Biturbo all those years ago to compete power wise and off the line, no other reason coz the Metro was quick enough on most tracks laptime wise, but you simply have to have power off the line

Stupid argument sorry
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 10:42 (Ref:3162808)   #4
Greg Cozier
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Greg Cozier should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The joker lap creates passing opportunities on tight tracks which otherwise don't have many; that in turn removes the need to punt people out of the way in order to pass.

The joker also confuses new and casual spectators to the sport and takes a bit of keeping track of even for veterans. It also spoils what should be a straight race.

The solution is to remove the need for the joker and then the joker itself. That means wider tracks and severe penalties for physical contact. According to the club rally and race drivers I've asked, physical contact is the single element keeping them out of the sport; if rallycross shed the demolition derby image entries would soar.
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 12:48 (Ref:3162858)   #5
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leonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridleonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Got to agree with Greg. Good tracks don't need joker laps. Bad tracks can't benefit from them because they disrupt the spectacle of close racing.

Wide tracks, some banking, at least one straight into a tight braking zone, loose sections on key bends... that will sort them out and provide for a decent race. Whoever complains about Croft, Lydden or (in the old days) Brands?
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 13:12 (Ref:3162868)   #6
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should be a straight race
Boring!

If a race is 8 laps long, then perhaps joker laps should be taken in laps 3-6, so there's close action in the start and finish.
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 15:06 (Ref:3162910)   #7
Mad Mark Watson
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from a driver point of view i dont mind thm at certain tracks
lydden doesnt need one as there are 5 or so passing opportunities
some tracks do nee them to liven things up but then some who have created them just dont work and become dangerous
maaschmechlen doesnt in my view
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 16:41 (Ref:3162957)   #8
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I agree with Greg. I used to watch Rallycross as a kid in the 80s and 90s and loved it. After about 10yrs away I went back 5yrs ago and didnt have a clue what was happening! Didnt like the joker idea at all and I am sure its more destruction derby than it ever used to be. The damage done to the cars seems ridiculous to me...
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 19:57 (Ref:3163012)   #9
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I'll add this: "Eliminate the impossible; whatever left, however improbable, must be the truth".

Rallycross is a perfect place for retired rally cars of all types. When bodies get tatty and wiring failing and other bits giving scrutineers some grief the perfect place for rally cars and drivers is the rallycross track. Service is easier, camaraderie in the pits better, family involvement better, cost to run the car cheaper, easier sport to take part in when we all get older.

Why don't more of them make the transition?

Because we all have enough skill to destroy our cars without any outside assistance whatsoever and no-one wants some idiot on the track doing it for them.
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 20:17 (Ref:3163025)   #10
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Croft last weekend reminded me what rallycross was like before joker laps, close racing even when their was only 3 or 4 cars in a race, drivers with slower cars defending their position, drivers with quicker cars trying to pass rather than taking the joker. The Simpson, Knowles battles were a great example of that, and I dont believe there was alot of contact during the weekend either. Also I dont think having a joker makes the races less predictable, if anything more so (at Lydden drivers on the outside always take it on the first lap, the leader nearly always on the last), a split field of cars on the laps inbetween.

I understand some circuits are tight and overtaking is almost impossible,but rather than the expense of putting in a joker money should have been spent on modifying the circuits. Germany is an example of a poor joker, right at the end of the lap so most races end with the winner exiting the joker and taking the flag at the same time, and a circuit where there still seems to be alot of damage. Also if the idea was to cut down on contact why were the finals then increased to 8 cars? Wider first corners (Lyddens is now narrower thanks to the joker) and stricter penalties are what is required

If the point of the joker was to stop the quicker drivers being held up and getting a bad time in the heats then with the new speedway format this is no longer so, particually as there shouldnt be any greatly slower cars involved. Finals should definately NOT have a joker lap.

Final thought, with rallycross trying to attract a new live and tv audience surely the joker only confuses things, particually on the tv. Keep it simple and let them see close door to door, bumper to bumper racing and they like us may just become hooked.
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 20:52 (Ref:3163042)   #11
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Originally Posted by Greg Cozier View Post
Rallycross is a perfect place for retired rally cars of all types. When bodies get tatty and wiring failing and other bits giving scrutineers some grief the perfect place for rally cars and drivers is the rallycross track.
Maybe - but by that point the car is usually canabalised for the next project or sold off to finance the new build. So you're looking at starting from a tired shell and adding everything else back on to it.

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Service is easier, camaraderie in the pits better, family involvement better, cost to run the car cheaper, easier sport to take part in when we all get older.
Not sure I'd agree with that, service is no easier than a single venue rally, we've never had a problem with a lack of camaraderie in service, car costs aren't a lot different - the main saving being no MOT requirements I guess. Easier to take part in? No difference really?

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Originally Posted by Greg Cozier View Post
Why don't more of them make the transition?

Because we all have enough skill to destroy our cars without any outside assistance whatsoever and no-one wants some idiot on the track doing it for them.
Watching our rally car doing rallycross makes me very nervous! (especially as drivers that are going to "stay out of trouble" and "start from the back and keep out of the way" tend to forget plans like that when the lights go out )
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Old 5 Nov 2012, 22:13 (Ref:3163069)   #12
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All the best races I've witnessed over the years haven't involved 'Joker Lap'.

Spoils a good race.

I always thought it was introduced to help in keeping damage down.
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Old 6 Nov 2012, 07:38 (Ref:3163223)   #13
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Considering I am an old has been and was around in the glory days I seem to be in the moniroty in not minding the joker lap at all.

I think it might encourage a bit of damage at the release point but only in places like Belgium where both people can se each other and can make a decision to cause problems.

Peopel are wearing rose tints in here, how many races can you remember decided after the start in the times before joker lap? Pretty much the majority. If a guy gets a bvad startahd is miles quicker he is gonna pass those in front anyway, so I dont see the problem.

European rallycross has always been riddled with damage in all classes, it was far worse in the GpN days and stuff, so please dont say its any different now. I agree that the joker might give us more damage when really we need less, but it is oiften side panal stuff, not always bad damage.

I seriously dont mind it, it is often quite interesting to work out the tactics.

One thing I do totally disagree with is radios, totally pointless and defeats the object entirely, plus a needless cost. Ban radios, make the drivers the ones to decided when to joker and then fair enough.
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Old 6 Nov 2012, 09:06 (Ref:3163253)   #14
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rx-guru should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If all competitors must drive the Joker Lap section in every lap the prob is gone for good!
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Old 6 Nov 2012, 14:09 (Ref:3163368)   #15
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Hickey should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Someone on here once posted the best idea regarding the joker lap and I wish someone would listen to them.

Joker laps are a good idea for the heats cos they give a driver the opportunity to get a competitive heat time even if they have had a slow start. They also (should) limit the number of people punting others off to get past, ruining at least one of those peoples' qualifiying times.

BUT they should be abandoned for the finals. Once you qualify into the final, it should be a straight fight for the line.

However, having said all this, has anyone thought about how they fit into the new IMG structure? I think it takes the point away from having a round robin (i.e. racing each other entrant) if you keep the joker lap. Imagine how stupid speedway would look with a joker lap and round robin format.
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Old 6 Nov 2012, 18:10 (Ref:3163459)   #16
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I admit some tracks do need a joker as there is no opportunitys too pass but
tracks like mondello and lydden have no excuse to need a joker lap . .
Well said Hickey thats the best one i've heard in a long time
If the joker has to stay then only have it in the heats and in the finals let them
at it No joker . . .Proper racing lights to flag
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Old 6 Nov 2012, 18:34 (Ref:3163469)   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dozer View Post
I admit some tracks do need a joker as there is no opportunitys too pass but
tracks like mondello and lydden have no excuse to need a joker lap . .
Well said Hickey thats the best one i've heard in a long time
If the joker has to stay then only have it in the heats and in the finals let them
at it No joker . . .Proper racing lights to flag
That make the racing less complicated for the spectator but it doesn't solve the problem of getting by other cars for the drivers which will, in turn, lead to more aggressive driving, broken cars and bad image for aspiring newcomers.
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Old 7 Nov 2012, 08:52 (Ref:3163648)   #18
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Originally Posted by Greg Cozier View Post
That make the racing less complicated for the spectator but it doesn't solve the problem of getting by other cars for the drivers which will, in turn, lead to more aggressive driving, broken cars and bad image for aspiring newcomers.
Not if its policed properly and bad/over aggressive driving is swiftly punished.
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Old 7 Nov 2012, 10:09 (Ref:3163682)   #19
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
You will never stop bad driving in rallycross, and let's face it at the top level its like V8's or touring cars, it is and should be part of the show, these guys have the budgest to afford it!

Stupidly aggressive driving yes should be penalised, but the rest of it should just be time penalties.

Most of the guys who drive like that are not aroudn anymore, Eriksson and Hunsbedt were the worst culprits, Eriksson in particular was a maniac really. Liam is up and down, calm one minute, mental whe the pressure is on him. They dont seem to have learned from Sverre and Timur that it never works to be aggressive, it is about being smooth.

But that is boring isnt it, which is why GRC works for Yanks!
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Old 7 Nov 2012, 12:05 (Ref:3163722)   #20
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Not if its policed properly and bad/over aggressive driving is swiftly punished.
Exactly.

I only ever organised one rallycross event in Barbados back in '06. There were three local 'supercar' competitors (rallycars without restrictors) and 6 from UK/Ireland: Doran, Doran, Tracey, Gibson, Procter, Carnegie) along with about 30 other cars competing (rally and race cars). Over 100 local rally and race drivers were spectating and the organisers agreed that if the bumping was allowed they would never take part in future events so the COC issued a stern warning in the drivers' meeting; there was not a single incident for the entire meet that was driver-caused.

BUT Vaucluse Raceway is a huge track with plenty of passing opportunities.

My point is simply this: I and probably thousands of others do not believe that cars have to be destroyed to entertain drivers or spectators; that kind of behavior has the opposite effect on most sane racecar owners. It is the race organisers responsibility to provide a safe, fair and fun environment for everyone there and driver discipline is one of the most important aspects. How the crashing element was ever accepted in the sport would be an entertaining historical study.
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Old 7 Nov 2012, 12:35 (Ref:3163728)   #21
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leonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridleonidas should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Its certainly nothing new. I remember there being a lot of contact in the Group B era - some deliberate, some because there was more power than talent on display...

Bad driving has grown in the national classes but that's because of weak leadership. Rallycross has never had a Bernie Ecclestone or a Bill France to take it forward and impose discipline. Its always been a bit of a free for all. I remember Stuart Turner praising rallycross as a sport but telling youngsters it would never lead them anywhere career-wise because of its 'gypsy' image (pre-PC days) amongst manufacturers. I still love it but the basic problem is still there. People think that you make a sport professional by having expensive cars - actually the most important thing is the organisation and the behaviour of people involved.
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Old 7 Nov 2012, 13:59 (Ref:3163751)   #22
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The nature of the sport positively encourages it though, quick, sharp races, mainly decided on the startline.

I wouldnt have it any other way, and to be fair I dont remember Turner moaning when he was selling RS500 and 200 spares by the van load during said era! Thats why they entered a works car after all!!
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Old 9 Nov 2012, 08:43 (Ref:3164418)   #23
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winnie has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Think the main cause of problems is the contact going into the important 1st bend. This isn't helped by the euro cars starting 4 abreast.

I would like to see a 2x2x2 grid like we use in the uk, but a much larger gap between the rows, perhaps 10m. This would spread out the cars into the 1st corner and help eliminate contact. If each car started one heat from each row it would give all an equal chance., The quicker cars would still catch up the slower cars and have a chance of setting a good time. Lets not forget rallycross is all about time. The only 'race' is the final.

The organisers really need to stop the contact. There will always be door handling, but using the car in front as a brake is totally unacceptable. I would intoduce yellow and red cards for contact, just like football. Continually tapping the car in front is a yellow, 2 yellows is a red and instant disquallyification from the meeting and a ban. Spinning cars out, ramming into the side is an instant red, and instant ban.

The drivers will soon learn the sport is non contact.
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Old 9 Nov 2012, 08:55 (Ref:3164423)   #24
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
They havent learned in NASCAR, touring cars or single make formulas, so what makes you think any kind of puniushment would make a difference!

Promoters like it, and so do the people trying to make the series better, its why people like NASCAR and touring cars and why it is encourages to keep the cars as equal as possible.

Personally I think it should be discouraged but not totally banned, it is very difficult to stop it and it brings conflict and talking points and always has to rallycross, one thing that right now we could do with!
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Old 9 Nov 2012, 12:31 (Ref:3164499)   #25
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winnie has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The promoters may well like it, but the average club competitor doesn't, and this is one of the reasons competitor numbers are falling.

If the sport is run correctly it can be clean. Look at National Hot rods. There are often 20 cars on a 1/4 mile oval and a little amount of pushing and contact is always going to happen, but if any-one is constantly pushing other cars around they are told to load up and go home. If it continues at the next meeting they are banned for a couple of meetings. If it can work on a 1/4 mile oval it can work on a rallycross track.
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