Group A Holden Commodores in Europe

[rdmdog]

Originally Posted by KA

1987

Mike O'Brien/Linden Racing- ex-Grice VK run in the BTCC by Alan Docking Racing. Subsequently seems to have been sold on (1988/9?), possibly to Chris Maries.

Where did it go after that?

Does the info here help at all?

[KA]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

Does the info here help at all?

I definitely remember there being some coverage in the UK press (Autosport/Motoring News) of the delays in homologating the 'Walkinshaw' VL, so the report of the O'Brien car testing in injected spec and then having to revert to 'Brock' spec on carbs definitely rings a bell.

As we've said before, the European race debut of the TWR car eventually came in late August/early September. I think the O'Brien car might have made it's first appearance in injected HSV-spec at Brands on 21st Aug, but both O'Brien (DNQ) and Walkinshaw (qualified 5th) ran in qualifying for the aborted BTCC race at the Birmingham Superprix a week or two later-TWR finally raced their car for the first time at Silverstone in the TT, before shipping it to Australia for Bathurst

The O'Brien VL definitely seems to have been a different car from the ex-Grice VK- but where from? Think there have been suggestions earlier in the thread that the VL may have had Brock, rather than Roadways origins?

[KA]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

Found a photo of 2 TWR Carby VL's, supposedly from Monza. Photo was in July 17 1987 Auto Action, Second (Colour) Photo is from the front cover of July 31 1987 Auto Action.

That's the first pic I think I've ever seen showing a pair of TWR VLs. The reference to Monza is interesting- As we know, TWR didn't appear in the WTCC until the Nurburgring in the summer, but I've got a very vague memory that at the start of the season, there was a lot of speculation about whether they'd appear at Monza or not.

The colour pic from the July Auto Action cover looks like it's from the 'Ring WTCC appearance- the car definitely ran with race no.3, and the 'Herbie Clips' sponsorship, which seems to be missing on the 'Monza' pic has made an appearance. I think 'Herbie Clips' was a company Walkinshaw was involved in, and they seemed to turn up as a sponsor for various TWR 'one-off' outings outside their main programmes- some early Rover rally appearances in '83/4, a pair of Rovers at a 1986 Brands Hatch BTCC GP support, and TWR's few European Commodore appearances.

[racer69]

Here is the track test of the O'Brien TWR VL from the December 1988 edition of "Motorsport"

Page 1 - http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6100/obrienvl1.jpg
Page 2 - http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8334/obrienvl2.jpg

[rogered]

good shots

confirms to me that this is not the grice vk
cage is different from the gerry marshall silverstone photos early in this thread
hdt and roadways have different cage designs.
Where did this car come from. ex twr? or bitsa
wheels and hubs are interesting
HDT built cars typically (but not always) supplied with 5 studs

Originally Posted by racer69

Here is the track test of the O'Brien TWR VL from the December 1988 edition of "Motorsport"

Page 1 - http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6100/obrienvl1.jpg
Page 2 - http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8334/obrienvl2.jpg

[rdmdog]

Larry was always a big fan of five studs after a loose single nut on the Mustang he shared with Dick slowed him at Bathurst in the mid 80s, but at the time there were few Aussie built cars that had single nuts, JPS BMW might have been one of the first? Might have even been in the Group C 635 days? Most customer VL and after Aussie Commodores had a high % of Larry parts. Surprising some of the ads that are for VK Commodores that people were selling in early 87 to fund VL cars rather than updating the panels etc. INCLUDING an ad for a HDT Built VK race car that had never been raced (up to that time at least).............. wonder where that ended up???

Nice shots of the Docking/O'Brien car, not a bad story either!

The mention tyres twigged another thing about the euro Commodore for Bathurst '88, Walkinshaw was going to run Yokos, no matter what Larry thought, so Larry had to put up with them rather than his much preferred (and suitable) Dunlops, that Larry had used for a looooong time.

[KA]

Originally Posted by rogered

good shots

confirms to me that this is not the grice vk
cage is different from the gerry marshall silverstone photos early in this thread
hdt and roadways have different cage designs.
Where did this car come from. ex twr? or bitsa
wheels and hubs are interesting
HDT built cars typically (but not always) supplied with 5 studs

Yes, I see what you mean about the cage- that brace between the front cage leg and the windscreen pillar does stand out on pics of the VK

Pity the MotorSport article didn't go into the origin of the car- as you say, I wonder where it came from?

[KA]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

Larry was always a big fan of five studs after a loose single nut on the Mustang he shared with Dick slowed him at Bathurst in the mid 80s, but at the time there were few Aussie built cars that had single nuts, JPS BMW might have been one of the first? Might have even been in the Group C 635 days? .

Slightly off-topic, on the single-nut v five stud issue, the JPS 635s would have been built from BMW Motorsport shells and parts, and I think single-nut hubs were pretty much a standard fitment on them- won't swear to it, but don't think I've ever seen a Group A 635 on 5-studs?

[anthony81901]

Likewise the Volvos, M3s, Sierras and GTRs all had single nut hubs. The only other leading cars not to run them were the Nissan DR30s & HR31s which ran 4 studs. Perkins continued to run 5 studs until switching to single nuts when pit stops in sprint races were introduced in 2000.

[Al Weyman]

As I said about a hundred posts ago Ric Wood sold the car to Peter Barnes who raced it against my Camaro and a host of other cars in the Modified Production Saloons, I had the pleasure of giving the car a good once over to try to solve some technical dispute or other and I have to say we did let it run but it was not 100% kosher with our regulations but nothing too drastic and a real proper car. He then sold it on and I believe it went to Holland.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

....INCLUDING an ad for a HDT Built VK race car that had never been raced (up to that time at least).............. wonder where that ended up???

Was it the HDT itself selling this car, or the customer who HDT built the car for?

HDT's original plan for the 1987 ATCC (after their WTCC budget went south), prior to Brocks break-up with Holden, called for the 3-car attack on the ATCC. Brock in the new VL, backed up by Allan Moffat and John Harvey in a pair of VKs

[rogered]

[QUOTE=racer69;2478959]Was it the HDT itself selling this car, or the customer who HDT built the car for?

HDT's original plan for the 1987 ATCC (after their WTCC budget went south), prior to Brocks break-up with Holden, called for the 3-car attack on the ATCC. Brock in the new VL, backed up by Allan Moffat and John Harvey in a pair of VKs[/QUOT

Racer

what happened to the 2 hdt vks (the kings cup cars)
I assume they came back to aust;
Never really given much thought as most brock gear is spoken for.
any idea?

[anthony81901]

Dare I say it, but the add for an 'unraced' VK was probably being a bit economical with the truth, perhaps unraced since its last rebuild.

The plan for Moffat and Harvey to start the season in VKs was probably that they would move to VLs as they were completed. Ford Performance Racing did the same thing in 2003, starting with 1 new BA and 2 AUs.

The car that Brock & Moffat had raced in the earlier rounds of the ETCC was used as the Lowe, Baigent & Bowkett car at Spa. Another VK was brought across from Australia for Brock, Moffat & Harvey.

Brock & Moffat debuted a new VK at the Sandown 500, so I am guessing that the car sent across for Spa was one of the 1986 ATCC cars. Spa was 3 weeks after the ATCC concluded.

Someone did post a list of the HDT chassis history, but I cannot locate it. I will enquire on on the Australian forums to see if anyone has this.

I don't think that the Spa cars returned to Australia. When Moffat destroyed 05 forward of the firewall at Bathurst the team rebuilt the car, indicating that they didn't have a spare car. Likewise after Gary Scott badly damaged 05 in testing at Lakeside, the team scaled back to 1 car until a VL was ready.

[rdmdog]

For Sale, Call Phil Brock........

[KA]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

.

The car that Brock & Moffat had raced in the earlier rounds of the ETCC was used as the Lowe, Baigent & Bowkett car at Spa. Another VK was brought across from Australia for Brock, Moffat & Harvey.

Brock & Moffat debuted a new VK at the Sandown 500, so I am guessing that the car sent across for Spa was one of the 1986 ATCC cars. Spa was 3 weeks after the ATCC concluded.

Someone did post a list of the HDT chassis history, but I cannot locate it. I will enquire on on the Australian forums to see if anyone has this.

I don't think that the Spa cars returned to Australia. When Moffat destroyed 05 forward of the firewall at Bathurst the team rebuilt the car, indicating that they didn't have a spare car. Likewise after Gary Scott badly damaged 05 in testing at Lakeside, the team scaled back to 1 car until a VL was ready.

You've answered the question I was just about to ask- which cars were used at Sandown and Bathurst?

I'm guessing at least one of the cars used at Spa has to have still been in Europe the weekend before Sandown, as it was used as the GM Dealer Sport entry for Cleland/Woodman at the TT (TT was 7th Sept, Sandown 14th Sept AFAIK?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antspho...7608209176086/

As you said, the team rebuilding the car after Moffatt's Bathurst practice shunt suggests a spare wasn't easily available- still in Europe perhaps?

How many cars did HDT use in '86? That list of HDT chassis history you mentioned would be very interesting to see...

[anthony81901]

Courtesy of the 'Grp C / Grp / V8SC Where are they now' thread under Australasian Touring Cars.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=396

There is a bit of chat about HDT cars here.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...34#post1419834

[rdmdog]

a few more from the TWR VL files from Silverstone (TT) Rd 10 1988 ETCC, Thanks to Auto Action

[chunterer]

Excellent images again;

The VL v HR31 side by shot from the '88 TT is a nice one!!.

It's a shame about the pre injected TWR VL's that are shown in your Monza paddock shot earlier. Onlly one of them races; at Nurburgring that year in that spec.

Even if they weren't endurance races as such, Walkinshaw could've given them outings and media exposure in the BTCC? I'm sure the organisers would've welcomed them with open arms!!

[KA]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

Courtesy of the 'Grp C / Grp / V8SC Where are they now' thread under Australasian Touring Cars.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=396

There is a bit of chat about HDT cars here.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...34#post1419834

Thanks- according to a Bathurst annual for '86, Brock's 05 at Bathurst was the new car, debuted at Sandown, as you said. The second car at Bathurst, No3 for Harvey/Lowe is described as 'formerly the Brock/Oxton 05 from Bathurst 1985, which was campaigned by Harvey during the 1986 ATCC as No3 or No7. It was suitably rebuilt, updated and pampered for Bathurst' (The previous year's book describes this as a new car for Sandown '85, and the third Group A car built by HDT for their own use)

[anthony81901]

Thanks KA, I only have the Bathurst annuals from 87.

So it would seem 3 VKs were built in 85, the Brock car from the beginning of the year, a second car by round 6 (not sure if Brock moved to this or stuck with the original), and a 3rd car at the Sandown 500.

This would make sense as there were 3 at Bathurst, 05, 7 and the T car. The T car was sold to Graham Moore in 86, the 3rd car became Harvey's 86 car, possibly the 2nd was sold to John Farrell in WA?

I am guessing that there were 2 new VKs for the beginning of 86, one for the ETCC and one for Brock to drive in the ATCC. Presumably it was Brock's ATCC car that was sent over to Spa. HDT only entered one car for Brock & Moffat at the Surfers Paradise 300 on 24th August, presumably using Harvey's car. Then there was chassis that debuted at the Sandown 500.

Although there does seem to be room for one more with chassis 8 being the first Group A car, and the Sandown car chassis 14. Perhaps 13 was skipped, has been done a couple of times since?

[rogered]

interesting that the details of the HDT cars are not clear and well known
I have never paid to much attention to them as i would have thought that the many HDT fans would have the history and location of these noted.
any HDT chassis would be a prized item.

[Nivola]

The Farrel car is still alive and a walkie from what I have read

Hmmm race somany years here (WA)

[rdmdog]

There are a few Commodores in here that I don't recognise? I'm sure there are more you tube files to look through as well! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RULl...eature=related

[rdmdog]

I just noticed in some photos from the book "Brock Moffat; on the road to Spa" that the #5 car from 1986 Spa and Hockenheim, and the T car from the 24 hour (?) dry run at Calder prior to leaving had the air jacks mounted outside of each axle (ie: in front of the front axle line, and behind the rear axle line.) Not too many Aussie cars have them there, may help to identify where these shells ended up?

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

I just noticed in some photos from the book "Brock Moffat; on the road to Spa" that the #5 car from 1986 Spa and Hockenheim, and the T car from the 24 hour (?) dry run at Calder prior to leaving had the air jacks mounted outside of each axle (ie: in front of the front axle line, and behind the rear axle line.) Not too many Aussie cars have them there, may help to identify where these shells ended up?

Looking at one of the pics racer69 put up of the O'Brien car, do my eyes deceive me or is that an air jack I see?

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8334/obrienvl2.jpg