Group A Holden Commodores in Europe

[KA]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

I just noticed in some photos from the book "Brock Moffat; on the road to Spa" that the #5 car from 1986 Spa and Hockenheim, and the T car from the 24 hour (?) dry run at Calder prior to leaving had the air jacks mounted outside of each axle (ie: in front of the front axle line, and behind the rear axle line.) Not too many Aussie cars have them there, may help to identify where these shells ended up?

Yes, see what you mean- they're fairly clearly visible in this Monza shot
http://www.monzasport.it/public/gall...o/1986-07g.jpg

[KA]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

Looking at one of the pics racer69 put up of the O'Brien car, do my eyes deceive me or is that an air jack I see?

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8334/obrienvl2.jpg

I've got a photo of the O'Brien VL car in early '88 season guise, before the fitting of the 'Walkinshaw' bodykit, which clearly shows the front airjack cut into the sill just behind the front wheelarch- that same feature shows up on the Brock cars.... http://www.brock05.com/mrhdtgallery/brock1987VL.jpg

[groupasprinter]

Originally Posted by rogered

good shots

confirms to me that this is not the grice vk
cage is different from the gerry marshall silverstone photos early in this thread
hdt and roadways have different cage designs.
Where did this car come from. ex twr? or bitsa
wheels and hubs are interesting
HDT built cars typically (but not always) supplied with 5 studs

I thnk you will find that the obrien car in the atricle is the 1987 MOBIL 05 car check out the interior photo's in the article nd then have a look of the photo of the car in Peter Champions Collection

http://www.championsbrockexperience....terior_pop.jpg

[rogered]

i agree
can it be confirmed they are the same.

[racer69]

I wouldn't have thought they were the same car

The original (well second built, the first went with Moffat) #05 VL from the 1987 ATCC went on to be the Spa car, then the #10 Bathurst winner, and then went on to Chris Lambden in 1988

The second Mobil VL to wear #05 (debuted at Oran Park Pepsi 250 '87?) that ran at Sandown, Bathurst, Calder, Wellington & AGP with Brock, from memory wasn't sold until well into the 1988 season, making it too late for the BTCC.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by racer69

I wouldn't have thought they were the same car

The original (well second built, the first went with Moffat) #05 VL from the 1987 ATCC went on to be the Spa car, then the #10 Bathurst winner, and then went on to Chris Lambden in 1988

The second Mobil VL to wear #05 (debuted at Oran Park Pepsi 250 '87?) that ran at Sandown, Bathurst, Calder, Wellington & AGP with Brock, from memory wasn't sold until well into the 1988 season, making it too late for the BTCC.

Do we know who bought the second Mobil VL in '88?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Do we know who bought the second Mobil VL in '88?

I'm not sure, however there is an interview with Brock on one of the early 1988 ATCC (or perhaps AMSCAR) coverages where he is still trying to flog the '87 Bathurst Commodore's, which i'd say would have made it highly unlikely one of them made it to the BTCC opener (i don't have the calendars handy though)

[anthony81901]

The HDT VLs had a horizontal towhook on the right hand side of the front bumper. The Roadways Commodores had vertical towhooks on the left hand side. The O'Brien car seems to have it in the same place as the HDT cars. The 2 HDT VLs do seem to differ a little with chassis 16 having a rollcage goes from the centre of the roof to the floor:

http://www.brock05.com/mrhdtgallery/brock1987VL.jpg

while on chassis 17 the rollcage went from the roof centre to the rear seat back, much like the O'Brien car:

http://www.brock05.com/mrhdtgallery/05bathurst1987.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6100/obrienvl1.jpg

The attached also shows the outward airjack as previously discussed on the ETCC VK:

http://www.brock05.com/mrhdtgallery/brockUK1.jpg

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by racer69

I'm not sure, however there is an interview with Brock on one of the early 1988 ATCC (or perhaps AMSCAR) coverages where he is still trying to flog the '87 Bathurst Commodore's, which i'd say would have made it highly unlikely one of them made it to the BTCC opener (i don't have the calendars handy though)

Not sure of the BTCC dates, but the first ATCC round was on 6th March 88. There were also 3 cars in the HDT fleet so perhaps it was the Bathurst winner and the converted VK that were still for sale, with the 17 chassis already sold? Chris Lambden probably didn't buy his until 88, as it first appeared at Bathurst in September. I guess what would be really handy would be a picture of the O'Brien's VL before it was upgraded to TWR specs.

[KA]

Any help?

http://img220.imageshack.us/i/img650hr1.jpg/

http://img220.imageshack.us/i/mikeob...encommodo.jpg/

[rdmdog]

Fuel Fillers were also different between car constructors for Dry Break Systems (were the same style used in Europe as in Aus? I can only imagine that if they were different prior to Gp A they would have been the same after?)

[groupasprinter]

Originally Posted by racer69

I wouldn't have thought they were the same car

The original (well second built, the first went with Moffat) #05 VL from the 1987 ATCC went on to be the Spa car, then the #10 Bathurst winner, and then went on to Chris Lambden in 1988

The second Mobil VL to wear #05 (debuted at Oran Park Pepsi 250 '87?) that ran at Sandown, Bathurst, Calder, Wellington & AGP with Brock, from memory wasn't sold until well into the 1988 season, making it too late for the BTCC.

The # 6 VL that Jon Crooke and Neil Crompton raced at Sandown was possibly Chassis 14 the VK update (05) from 1986 maybe this car and the Bathurst winner were the 2 cars left in 1988, Brocks Bathurst VL 05 is the only HDT Car to have the extra and different roll cage work from what i can tell from old photo's

[anthony81901]

Thanks KA,

The O'Brien VL has the wiper blade, bonnet pins, tow hook, air jack valve, engine cutoff switch, protruding air jack and rollcage in the same place and of the same type as HDT chassis 17. Taking into account this and the earlier picture of a HDT steering wheel in the car, I am fairly certain that it is the final HDT VL.

It is unlikely to be Roadways built as these all had a brace between the rollcage and the windscreen pillars, nor TWR built as these had the front air jacks located either side of the radiator and the fuel tank inlets at the rear rather than on the bootlid.

[groupasprinter]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Do we know who bought the second Mobil VL in '88?

1 VL oversea
1 VL Lambden
1 VL to Western Oz were it still lives

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by groupasprinter

The # 6 VL that Jon Crooke and Neil Crompton raced at Sandown was possibly Chassis 14 the VK update (05) from 1986 maybe this car and the Bathurst winner were the 2 cars left in 1988, Brocks Bathurst VL 05 is the only HDT Car to have the extra and different roll cage work from what i can tell from old photo's

Correct the #6 VL at the Oran Park 250 and Sandown 500 was chassis 14 converted. Chassis 16 had returned from Spa in time for Bathurst.

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by groupasprinter

1 VL to Western Oz were it still lives

I have a feeling that Mobil Statewide Oils sponsored WA's John Farrell. Certainly there were 3 Mobil VLs at the Adelaide GP in November 87, for Brock, David Parsons and Farrell. Possibly Farrell was taking delivery of chassis 14?

[racer69]

Farrell had his VL, or a VL, by the time of the 1987 ATCC round at Wanneroo, running #34 (he also ran in the street car support race in a VL in the same livery, but as #52... same car or different car?)

a shot from that race


It is in the 'VK-Mobil colours.... was this car perhaps the car used by the HDT in the press photo's at the end of 1986 showing off the new-for-87 VL (pic appears in an edition of AMC), The car in the promo pics is in this same colourscheme (presumebly a VK updated?)

Farrell also ran as mentioned in the '88 ATCC round.

Did this car then get onsold to the driver shown earlier (VL #10 in '87 livery) in the 1989 ATCC round at Wanneroo?



Although we have pretty much cemented the O'Brien VL as a HDT car, here is the best cockpit view of a Roadways VL i could find (Grice from the same '87 meeting)

[rogered]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

Thanks KA,

The O'Brien VL has the wiper blade, bonnet pins, tow hook, air jack valve, engine cutoff switch, protruding air jack and rollcage in the same place and of the same type as HDT chassis 17. Taking into account this and the earlier picture of a HDT steering wheel in the car, I am fairly certain that it is the final HDT VL.

It is unlikely to be Roadways built as these all had a brace between the rollcage and the windscreen pillars, nor TWR built as these had the front air jacks located either side of the radiator and the fuel tank inlets at the rear rather than on the bootlid.

looking at the champion car and obrian car, the insides are very similar,
enough for me to say this is "likely" to be an hdt chassis
camaroz put a rough list up of roadways chassis, and from that i would say they are allbut indentified in that era
so from that we could exclude this from being roadways.
can anyone pit a list up of all hdt gpA chassis, and we can work through that as a process of elimination

[rogered]

Originally Posted by KA

Any help?

http://img220.imageshack.us/i/img650hr1.jpg/

http://img220.imageshack.us/i/mikeob...encommodo.jpg/

great shots ka

the centre locks and bbs could easly be added to an hdt chassis i guess.
interesting that roadways did use slightly different rim offsets front to rear
this appears to use the same wheel

[groupasprinter]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

I have a feeling that Mobil Statewide Oils sponsored WA's John Farrell. Certainly there were 3 Mobil VLs at the Adelaide GP in November 87, for Brock, David Parsons and Farrell. Possibly Farrell was taking delivery of chassis 14?

The Farrell car is now in Sydney and was originally built in 85 by HDT to replace the Big Banger was lent back to HDT in 1986 and returned to Farrell in late 86/87 in VL panel work and VK paint scheme. It is not chassis 14, it was built earlier

My question is if HDT did borrow the car what for? and is the Photo of the # 34 VL being raced at that meeting by Farrell or Dennis Norgard? and is the Farrell and Dennis Norgard car the same car?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by groupasprinter

and is the Photo of the # 34 VL being raced at that meeting by Farrell or Dennis Norgard? and is the Farrell and Dennis Norgard car the same car?

The #34 is raced by Farrell

Presumebly this is the same car he ran again in 1988 at the corressponding ATCC round

As for whether the car was then sold to Norgard??

By 1990 anyway Farrell was trying to qualify a Lancia Delta for that years ATCC round

[anthony81901]

Apologies for repeating some things previously discussed, but here is my understanding of the HDT Group A Commodores.

From information on this thread:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...34#post1419834

what we know as fact:

Chassis 7 was the last Group C built, the 84 Sandown 500 & Bathurst 1000 winner

Chassis 14 was a VK debuted by Brock & Moffat at the 86 Sandown 500, raced as 05 until damaged in a testing accident by Gary Scott at Lakeside in the lead up to round 3 of the 87 ATCC. Rebuilt as a VL and raced by Neil Crompton & Jon Crooke at Oran Park 250 and Sandown 500 as #6.

Chassis 15 was the first VL built for the beginning of the 87 season with construction overseen by Neal Lowe. Was to be used in the WTCC, but after these plans were cancelled due to not being able to raise enough sponsorship, was earmarked as Brock’s ATCC car. Following the termination of the relationship between Holden and HDT and a resulting cash flow crisis at HDT, was sold to Allan Moffat and freighted to Europe. Moffat & John Harvey raced it at rounds 1, 2, 3 and 5 of the WTCC at Monza, Jarama, Dijon and Spa as #5 with Rothmans sponsorship. Was entered for Bathurst as #9, but after Moffat did a deal to run with Andy Rouse in a Sierra the entry was withdrawn. The car at some point returned to Australia and was sold to a collector. It was entered in the Calder 24 hour race in the mid 90’s, still retaining the Rothmans livery.

Chassis 16 was debuted by Brock at round 6 of the ATCC at Surfers Paradise and raced as 05 until the end of the series. Sent to Spa for the 24 hour race, being entered as #3 for Brock, David Parsons & Neville Crichton. Returned to Australia being entered at the Bathurst 1000 for Peter McLeod & Crooke, Calder 500 for McLeod & Crompton, Wellington 500 for Crompton & David Oxton (all as #10) and at the Adelaide GP for Parsons as #6. Sold to Chris Lambden and upgraded to TWR specs debuting at Bathurst 88 as #23. Raced throughout 89 season by Lambden, although by Bathurst ownership had passed to Bob Jones of Car-Trek. May have been the 2nd Car-Trek car at the 92 Sandown 500, Bathurst 1000 and Wellington 500 racing as #31 for Robbie Ker & Don Watson with Tic Tac sponsorship. Was returned to Brock carby specs and repainted back to its original livery. Collector David Bowden now owns it. Peter McLeod drove it in the Brock Bathurst winner’s parade at Bathurst in 06 and I believe is at the Bathurst museum still with centre locking hubs that it acquired at some stage, although Bowden does plan to correct this.

Chassis 17 was debuted by Brock at the Oran Park 250 and used as 05 at Sandown, Bathurst, Wellington and Adelaide. From the discussion in this thread this may have been sold to Mike O’Brien in the UK.

At least 3 VKs were built in 85, one debuting at the Wellington 500 in January, one at round 6 of the ATCC at Calder and one at the Sandown 500. Certainly there were 3 at Bathurst that year, 05 for Brock / Oxton, 7 for Harvey / Parsons and a T car.

So logically these were numbered 8, 9 and 10. The T car from Bathurst was sold to Graham Moore who raced it at Bathurst in 86 and 87. It was on display in the front window of the Strathfield Car Radios store on the Pacific Highway at North Sydney for a period in 88. The Brock / Oxton car became the John Harvey car for 86. So presumably the car sold to John Farrell was the 2nd built 85 car.

For the 86 season I believe there were 2 new cars, 1 for Brock to race in the ATCC, and another for the ETCC campaign, logically numbers 11 and 12.

A second car was sent to Europe for Spa. Based on the fact that there was no spare car at Bathurst in 86 and that Harvey continued with the car he had used all year, I presume that Brock’s ATCC car was sent.

John Cleland & Vince Woodman in the 86 Silverstone Tourist Trophy raced one of the European cars as #39.

I’m not sure if there was a chassis 13, perhaps for superstitious reasons this was past over, Perkins Engineering and 888 have done so since. Or perhaps 13 was another chassis, but for the reasons listed above I doubt it.

I found this piece on the WA cars http://forums.biante.com.au/showthread.php?p=8565 indicating that both chassis 14 and Harvey’s 86 car (the #6 VK from 87) were purchased by Bill Lee in WA (hence the Bill Lee signing on the rear of the car pictured on post #164 of this thread). It seems to indicate that Dennis Norgard’s car was chassis 14. I have emailed John on this, hopefully he will be able to clarify.

Found this excellent site which helpfully lists all the races that took place at Waneroo:

http://www.terrywalkersplace.com/

According to this at there were numerous races where John Farrell and Dennis Norgard appeared on the grid together. Based on the info on the Biante forum, I am thinking Farrell was using the 85 built car and Norgard chassis 14.

I believe Farrell was using his 85 car at the 87 Adelaide GP as it is in 86 livery rather than the 87 livery which chassis 14 was painted in when raced as #6, see the very beginning of this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_C-y...eature=related and retained this in 88 http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...34#post1419834

I don’t know why HDT borrowed Farrell’s car, its not as if any of its cars, aside from the Moffat Bathurst shunt, received any damage. Perhaps they were planning on using it as a test car as they needed to keep the race cars in VK spec for New Zealand and the new VL was not finished yet?

The picture of car #34 was at round 4 of the ATCC on 26th April 87 and Farrell was the driver. Don’t know why he ran it as #34 as in all other races before and after he ran as #52.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

The picture of car #34 was at round 4 of the ATCC on 26th April 87 and Farrell was the driver. Don’t know why he ran it as #34 as in all other races before and after he ran as #52.

In the Street Car race on the same program prior to the ATCC round, Farrell runs what i can only assume is the same car (on the appropriate tyres for the class of course) as #52

[rogered]

they built some customer cars early on (eg goldcorp car etc)
did they do any later on, say VL era?

[Nivola]

Guys Bill Lee was the HDT Builder in western australia. There is a Bill Lee Director up for sale at the moment.

The Vk I think is now a VL Walkinslow as this has popped up on another forum. As the owner is looking for images.

The HF Lancia was sadly an under prepared car for group A but damn it was one of the nicest beast I have ever seen race.