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16 Jan 2009, 19:59 (Ref:2372944) | #1 | ||
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Toe in - toe out?
Looking at the new McLaren, I notice something about the front and rear tires.
I was taught that you toe in the front tires to help with turn in and toe out the rears to give you better traction through the corners. But looking at this picture, it looks the opposite. Was I taught wrong or are the rules different with F1 cars? Or is this just the presentation and they use what I learned in race trim? |
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16 Jan 2009, 20:07 (Ref:2372949) | #2 | |
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Camera lenses can do some very weird things.
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16 Jan 2009, 20:14 (Ref:2372951) | #3 | ||
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With racing cars I was told you toe in the rears for straight line stability and toe out the front to aid turn in.
Don't take any notice of that picture though as I doubt the actual amout of toe used would be visible in a photo. |
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16 Jan 2009, 20:31 (Ref:2372959) | #4 | ||
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Its simply a measure to throw off Ferrari...
McLaren in reality have no idea how to setup a race car. |
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16 Jan 2009, 21:51 (Ref:2373016) | #5 | |||
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Quote:
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16 Jan 2009, 22:38 (Ref:2373048) | #6 | ||
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I think he was being serious...
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16 Jan 2009, 22:40 (Ref:2373051) | #7 | ||
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its only the launch car, mabey the toe came out of the factory like that ??
Im sure it will be adjusted |
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16 Jan 2009, 23:47 (Ref:2373090) | #8 | |
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All they need to do is pop it down to 'Kwik Fit'.They'll have it sorted in no time.
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17 Jan 2009, 13:09 (Ref:2373321) | #9 | ||
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That's what wide angle lenses do.
The rules of thumb are simply "never use toe out on the rear". This applies to road cars, race cars and F1 cars (but might not to rally cars where they might like the lack of stability). Front wheel toe used to be nearly always slight to in on rear wheel drive cars and slight toe-out for front wheel drive cars. But, in racing at least, the use of different levels of camber, anti-dive, Ackermann etc have meant more RWD cars (especially single seaters) have gone to static toe-out without suffering the usual mid corner understeer it would normally provide. |
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17 Jan 2009, 21:07 (Ref:2373495) | #10 | |
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The use of wide angle lenses also puts a few obstacles in the way of the opposition using too much reverse engineering to determine what has been built.The teams issue press packs with their selected photographs.
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18 Jan 2009, 15:37 (Ref:2373922) | #11 | ||
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At least about my previous generation FRenault car I can say that slight toe out front and neutral toe rear was the thing to have judging from some old setup sheets of then pro teams. I use that too and it works well.
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19 Jan 2009, 22:55 (Ref:2374878) | #12 | |
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....and there was I looking for camels.....
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20 Jan 2009, 13:25 (Ref:2375314) | #13 | ||
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Beat me to it!
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
21 Jan 2009, 02:13 (Ref:2375748) | #14 | ||
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What are the words to "Do the Hookie Cookie" ?
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21 Jan 2009, 16:46 (Ref:2376236) | #15 | |||
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ahem....caugh, caugh......the correct rule of thumb is do NOT use toe-out on the driven wheels........so on a RWD car its toe-in or parallel only on the rear wheels........for FWD cars only toe in or parallel should be used on the fronts only. I previously worked on a FWD BTCC car (circa 2002) and we used toe-out on the rear wheels to great effect, as it helped heat the tyres and helped greatly with turn in........the former issue is a big problem on FWD cars, the rear tyres are hard to heat up. |
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22 Jan 2009, 08:32 (Ref:2376626) | #16 | ||
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I know not a single person who drive FWD race cars with toe in at the front. I can understand your need to use 'toe out' at the rear in your special case but you might want to rethink about your 'rule of thumb' |
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22 Jan 2009, 11:49 (Ref:2376733) | #17 | |||
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22 Jan 2009, 12:50 (Ref:2376771) | #18 | |
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Sorry, but why would your wheels toe out under braking if your bump steer is set up correctly?
F3 cars have generally run toe out on the front and toe in or parallel on the rear for the last 20 years or so. I remember earlier Formula fords used to run toe in all round, not sure what they run now. There may be some cars/drivers that will require a different set up but formula cars generally don't toe out on the rear and most FWD toe out on the front. Cheers |
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22 Jan 2009, 14:35 (Ref:2376849) | #19 | ||
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I did say it may not apply to F1 cars, which would really include S/Seaters too. I speak only from my experience and of course it does also rely heavily on bumpsteer, castor and camber settings. However in my case it works.
When I ran FWD we ran with nuetral toe because we trail braked thus were on the power through the apex. RWD/Front engine is a bit different. |
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I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
22 Jan 2009, 15:28 (Ref:2376890) | #20 | ||
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Can I suggest this one gets a move to technology?
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I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
22 Jan 2009, 16:17 (Ref:2376926) | #21 | |
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Err....yes,it is rather off topic.
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22 Jan 2009, 16:34 (Ref:2376941) | #22 | |||
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23 Jan 2009, 21:32 (Ref:2377902) | #23 | ||
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try it on a racing game on ps2 or ps3!! best way to find out wot happens on racing car that is!!
toe out or 0 toe F, defo toe in on the rear, but only a bit.. just enough to ensure its not toe out. Toe makes a big difference to how much your driver moans at you when he comes back in! too much and the tyres get too hot, too little and its ****! |
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24 Jan 2009, 00:41 (Ref:2377997) | #24 | ||
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It depends to a fair amount on what type of suspension you are running.
Most road cars are given + or - tolerances, but because of the built in compliance actually run at just about parallel( back and front)when driving in "normal" road use otherwise the tyres would wear unevenly. However as most race cars use either solid bushes or rose joints, the movement is more controlled . Whether your particular car needs tow in or out can only realy be ascertained by testing for the best all round handling and times. In a race several years ago I had a slight "altercation" with another car, and found that it was steering better and put in faster lap times for the rest of the race and won the class. On checking the geometry in the workshop I found it a fair bit different than what I had been using in the past, and continued using that setting. |
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24 Jan 2009, 08:51 (Ref:2378097) | #25 | |||
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Although that's all irrelevant as I run parallel at at the front now. |
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