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Old 16 Jan 2009, 19:59 (Ref:2372944)   #1
rblanshard
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rblanshard should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridrblanshard should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Toe in - toe out?

Looking at the new McLaren, I notice something about the front and rear tires.

I was taught that you toe in the front tires to help with turn in and toe out the rears to give you better traction through the corners. But looking at this picture, it looks the opposite.



Was I taught wrong or are the rules different with F1 cars? Or is this just the presentation and they use what I learned in race trim?
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 20:07 (Ref:2372949)   #2
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Camera lenses can do some very weird things.
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 20:14 (Ref:2372951)   #3
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With racing cars I was told you toe in the rears for straight line stability and toe out the front to aid turn in.
Don't take any notice of that picture though as I doubt the actual amout of toe used would be visible in a photo.
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 20:31 (Ref:2372959)   #4
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Its simply a measure to throw off Ferrari...

McLaren in reality have no idea how to setup a race car.
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 21:51 (Ref:2373016)   #5
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rblanshard should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridrblanshard should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Sodemo
Its simply a measure to throw off Ferrari...

McLaren in reality have no idea how to setup a race car.
Genius...
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 22:38 (Ref:2373048)   #6
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I think he was being serious...
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 22:40 (Ref:2373051)   #7
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nickyf1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridnickyf1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
its only the launch car, mabey the toe came out of the factory like that ??

Im sure it will be adjusted
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 23:47 (Ref:2373090)   #8
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All they need to do is pop it down to 'Kwik Fit'.They'll have it sorted in no time.
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Old 17 Jan 2009, 13:09 (Ref:2373321)   #9
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tristancliffe should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridtristancliffe should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That's what wide angle lenses do.

The rules of thumb are simply "never use toe out on the rear". This applies to road cars, race cars and F1 cars (but might not to rally cars where they might like the lack of stability). Front wheel toe used to be nearly always slight to in on rear wheel drive cars and slight toe-out for front wheel drive cars.

But, in racing at least, the use of different levels of camber, anti-dive, Ackermann etc have meant more RWD cars (especially single seaters) have gone to static toe-out without suffering the usual mid corner understeer it would normally provide.
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Old 17 Jan 2009, 21:07 (Ref:2373495)   #10
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The use of wide angle lenses also puts a few obstacles in the way of the opposition using too much reverse engineering to determine what has been built.The teams issue press packs with their selected photographs.
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Old 18 Jan 2009, 15:37 (Ref:2373922)   #11
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At least about my previous generation FRenault car I can say that slight toe out front and neutral toe rear was the thing to have judging from some old setup sheets of then pro teams. I use that too and it works well.
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Old 19 Jan 2009, 22:55 (Ref:2374878)   #12
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Malfunction Junction should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMalfunction Junction should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
....and there was I looking for camels.....
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Old 20 Jan 2009, 13:25 (Ref:2375314)   #13
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Old 21 Jan 2009, 02:13 (Ref:2375748)   #14
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Old 21 Jan 2009, 16:46 (Ref:2376236)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristancliffe
That's what wide angle lenses do.

The rules of thumb are simply "never use toe out on the rear". This applies to road cars, race cars and F1 cars (but might not to rally cars where they might like the lack of stability). Front wheel toe used to be nearly always slight to in on rear wheel drive cars and slight toe-out for front wheel drive cars.

But, in racing at least, the use of different levels of camber, anti-dive, Ackermann etc have meant more RWD cars (especially single seaters) have gone to static toe-out without suffering the usual mid corner understeer it would normally provide.

ahem....caugh, caugh......the correct rule of thumb is do NOT use toe-out on the driven wheels........so on a RWD car its toe-in or parallel only on the rear wheels........for FWD cars only toe in or parallel should be used on the fronts only.

I previously worked on a FWD BTCC car (circa 2002) and we used toe-out on the rear wheels to great effect, as it helped heat the tyres and helped greatly with turn in........the former issue is a big problem on FWD cars, the rear tyres are hard to heat up.
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 08:32 (Ref:2376626)   #16
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Originally Posted by knighty
ahem....caugh, caugh......the correct rule of thumb is do NOT use toe-out on the driven wheels........so on a RWD car its toe-in or parallel only on the rear wheels........for FWD cars only toe in or parallel should be used on the fronts only.

I previously worked on a FWD BTCC car (circa 2002) and we used toe-out on the rear wheels to great effect, as it helped heat the tyres and helped greatly with turn in........the former issue is a big problem on FWD cars, the rear tyres are hard to heat up.
Are you sure about that 'rule of thumb'? I drive a FWD car and I NEVER have toe-in at the front. Always toe-out. At the very least zero toe. Toe-in always at the rear. I cannot possibly imagine having toe-in at the front. It would be impossible to get the front to 'turn in'

I know not a single person who drive FWD race cars with toe in at the front.

I can understand your need to use 'toe out' at the rear in your special case but you might want to rethink about your 'rule of thumb'
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 11:49 (Ref:2376733)   #17
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Originally Posted by falcemob
With racing cars I was told you toe in the rears for straight line stability and toe out the front to aid turn in.
Don't take any notice of that picture though as I doubt the actual amout of toe used would be visible in a photo.
Oops. If you toe-out you cause understeer because the weight under breaking makes the wheels point outwards even more. This is for our FE cars. For an F1 I think the rules would be different but none-the-less I'd expect a little toe-in just the make sure the wheels are parralel when turning in.
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 12:50 (Ref:2376771)   #18
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Sorry, but why would your wheels toe out under braking if your bump steer is set up correctly?
F3 cars have generally run toe out on the front and toe in or parallel on the rear for the last 20 years or so. I remember earlier Formula fords used to run toe in all round, not sure what they run now.
There may be some cars/drivers that will require a different set up but formula cars generally don't toe out on the rear and most FWD toe out on the front. Cheers
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 14:35 (Ref:2376849)   #19
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I did say it may not apply to F1 cars, which would really include S/Seaters too. I speak only from my experience and of course it does also rely heavily on bumpsteer, castor and camber settings. However in my case it works.

When I ran FWD we ran with nuetral toe because we trail braked thus were on the power through the apex. RWD/Front engine is a bit different.
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 15:28 (Ref:2376890)   #20
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Can I suggest this one gets a move to technology?
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 16:17 (Ref:2376926)   #21
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Err....yes,it is rather off topic.
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Old 22 Jan 2009, 16:34 (Ref:2376941)   #22
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Can I suggest this one gets a move to technology?
Suggestion accepted.
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Old 23 Jan 2009, 21:32 (Ref:2377902)   #23
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try it on a racing game on ps2 or ps3!! best way to find out wot happens on racing car that is!!

toe out or 0 toe F, defo toe in on the rear, but only a bit.. just enough to ensure its not toe out.
Toe makes a big difference to how much your driver moans at you when he comes back in! too much and the tyres get too hot, too little and its ****!
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 00:41 (Ref:2377997)   #24
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It depends to a fair amount on what type of suspension you are running.
Most road cars are given + or - tolerances, but because of the built in compliance
actually run at just about parallel( back and front)when driving in "normal" road use otherwise the tyres would wear unevenly.
However as most race cars use either solid bushes or rose joints, the movement is more controlled . Whether your particular car needs tow in or out can only realy be ascertained by testing for the best all round handling and times.
In a race several years ago I had a slight "altercation" with another car, and found that it was steering better and put in faster lap times for the rest of the race and won the class. On checking the geometry in the workshop I found it a fair bit different than what I had been using in the past, and continued using that setting.
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Old 24 Jan 2009, 08:51 (Ref:2378097)   #25
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett
Oops. If you toe-out you cause understeer because the weight under breaking makes the wheels point outwards even more. This is for our FE cars. For an F1 I think the rules would be different but none-the-less I'd expect a little toe-in just the make sure the wheels are parallel when turning in.
I've never had that problem, it maybe gets a bit squirmy under hard braking but I am generally on the power from the moment I have stopped braking and start to turn in then I would expect oversteer.
Although that's all irrelevant as I run parallel at at the front now.
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