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Old 13 Apr 2011, 21:16 (Ref:2863052)   #1
jay_nation
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Formula Ford Marrick 1994 - Suspension Puzzle!

Good Evening all,

Just wanting to scratch a few brains if I may and make some sense of a particular suspension set up, anyone fancy a challenge! Development Car.

Car Details:

Formula Ford 'Marrick' 1994 (Van Diemen 1985/6 Rear End)
Kent 1600cc
Twin Shocks Rear 1986 Spec
Font Mono Shock (Dellara 'Belleville Washer' Anti Roll Bar)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3460/001vy.jpg

I am struggling to find any information on the set-up/technical information on the front suspension system. I have never come across a 'Marrick' chassis before, I believe a number of these were manufactured and sent to 'China'. This chassis is based on the 1994 Van Diemen with some differences.

So can anyone point me in the right direction for information on how these systems work, I believe they are used in F3? I need to know how the arrangement of the washers work and what springs I should expect to use on the vehicle i.e 600Lbs?

Any help would be appreciated.

JP

Last edited by jay_nation; 13 Apr 2011 at 21:32. Reason: Adding image
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 17:34 (Ref:2863880)   #2
jay_nation
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Wow 142 views!

Thanks for everyones interest...anyone want to start the topic off? Ordered some new springs today in order to improve the droop on the car!

Any input would be appreciated.

JP
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 19:28 (Ref:2863925)   #3
ghinzani
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Hello Jay - obvious question but have your tried VD themselves? The 84 was supposed to have a three year life span but because the Swift DB3 was so good they canned it after a year and brought out the Iconic RF85. I liked the RF84 myself from a visual perspective, but some nicknamed it the Pterodactyl!! Would be nice to some pics of the whole car if you have any.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 19:30 (Ref:2863927)   #4
ghinzani
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oh wait you said 94 not 84 - scrub all that! sorry...
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 19:54 (Ref:2863944)   #5
jay_nation
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Hi Ghinzani,

Many thanks for your input, appreciate the reply. I have been in touch with a couple of VD specialists but not VD themselves, they scratched their heads too! May be worth contacting VD directly or Dallara for info on the 'Belleville Washer' type Anti-Roll bar assembly?

Cheers

JP
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 21:08 (Ref:2863975)   #6
ghinzani
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Got to be worth a punt - Dallara have people over here but also speak good english at the factory.

Stick some pics up when you get a chance, intrigued!
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Old 17 Apr 2011, 10:15 (Ref:2864944)   #7
jay_nation
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Morning Ghinzani,

Thanks for your input again.

Just to remind it is a 85/6 Rear End VD with 1994 Marrick (Based on VD) Chassis!

I have been able to determine that we have Bilstein Dampers now but have not been able to determine what springs we have although I do know that they are very soft and suffer from massive amounts of droop!

http://motorsport.bilstein.de/Std-Mo...65.0.html?&L=1

As for the Front Anti Roll Bar still a puzzle cant find anything Dallara 'like'. Probably time to make some calls/emails to Dallara/VD?

What images would you like to see?

JP
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Old 17 Apr 2011, 17:55 (Ref:2865187)   #8
Dermot Healy
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Roll is controlled by the series of washers positioned at each side of the fulcrum as shown in your photo. As the vehicle rolls the fulcrum is pushed to one or other side. When the taper of the Bellville washers is placed face to face or back to back some compression is possible, but the more of the washers that are placed one on top of the other, with their tapers facing the same way, the less compression is possible & the more roll is resisted....so to adjust you change the order of the washers....but you probably know this already & i have probably misunderstood your enquiry
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Old 17 Apr 2011, 19:41 (Ref:2865247)   #9
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Good Evening Dermot,

I appreciate your input here.

I do understand the basic function as you described, was hoping to find some more technical information and specifications on the particular system that the Ford houses.

For Example:

Manufacturer
Washer size/rates
Setup features/examples
Part numbers/access to spares

However your description was excellent and professional thanks for the advice.

JP
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Old 20 Apr 2011, 19:39 (Ref:2867172)   #10
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Get your self a copy of a dallara f3 or tattus formula renault manual they will give you a good idea of what to do with the washers in the front roll bar

the 92 van diemen was mono shock but the had springs not bellville washers.

I think dallara washers are 2mm thick

Your friend at the race car ware house should be able to help you!
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Old 20 Apr 2011, 20:36 (Ref:2867212)   #11
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There was an earlier Marrick for sale a few years back that I was interested in. AFAIR it was actually two chassis, or a full car plus a spare chassis. I think they were using the VD 89 rear end and the vd 91 front end. Something like that anyway. I tried to get it passed for use in pre '90 but it was no go. Probably quite right too. But in the open class it would be an interesting experiment.
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Old 1 May 2011, 08:47 (Ref:2872303)   #12
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Try Innes Hickman at Minitron Racing . . . though I'm guessing you already know him.
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Old 2 May 2011, 21:32 (Ref:2873179)   #13
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Hi Jon,

Many thanks for your input, I have spoken with Innes he is a fountain of information, really great chap.

He drove our College race car the one in question in the 2010 Semsec Championship.

I have gathered some information I am getting there slowly but any input is most welcome.

Thanks
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Old 6 May 2011, 09:13 (Ref:2875176)   #14
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Speak with Dave Morgan at Mallory Park.
He will be able to help you I am sure.
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Old 9 May 2011, 12:47 (Ref:2877421)   #15
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Hi Jay,


I did a lot of work with these systems when i work for Dynamic Suspensions in Thetford. These systems have a major design flaw and people drastically mis-understand how they work, or rather that they don't work.

The Belvilles are easily sourced, drop me an email and i'll give you all the suppliers details. darren@gtstuning.co.uk but if you really want to develop the car then you need to move away from the system.

Drop me an email and i'll explain all, might be best in a telephone conversation.

A quick explaination though is that people believe that by preloading the bellvilles is stiffens the car up in roll which is wrong! Because you preload each side against one another you are not preloading the system, as one side counter acts the other and equals zero-preload therefore the spring rate of the washer stack remains the same and so does your anti-roll rate.

The Bellvilles can be stacked in various arrangements which effect their rate and their travel etc. back to back and face to face changes things dramatically, but, there are equations in the catalogues to show these effects. The other thing to know is that they are not very repeatable in terms of load and rate etc.

There are some other issues with monoshocks in general, but, the end result is almost everyone moved away from the system and back to twin dampers.

D.
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Old 9 May 2011, 13:16 (Ref:2877449)   #16
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http://www.assocspring.co.uk/pi_belspr.asp
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Old 9 May 2011, 14:09 (Ref:2877484)   #17
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Actually, if you do the maths, you'll see that preloading the bellevilles DOES have an effect. Within the displacement in which the bellevilles are preloaded (so if the preload is 1mm, then for the first 1mm movement) the roll rate is TWICE that of the stacks you choose. Beyond that displacement (i.e. once the preload is overcome, in this case beyond) then the rate is EQUAL to that of the stacks.

And that's just taking the rate of the stack as a single number. What actually happens is the single bellevilles become 'coil bound' first, which takes them out of the equation and makes the rate of the stack jump up.

Hence:
With a ><<>>< stack and 0.5mm preload
The overall non-preloaded rate is 363kg/mm
The preloaded rate is 725kg/mm

For the first 0.5mm the roll rate of the monoshock is 725kg/mm
Between 0.5mm and 1.126mm travel, the rate is 363km/mm
Between 1.126mm and 2.252mm the singles go coilbound and the rate jumps up to 1088kg/mm.
Beyond 2.252mm all the bellevilles have become coil bound, so it all goes infinitely stiff and bad things happen.

Good teams/drivers (I am not one of them) can play tunes, such that at turn in, mid corner, and corner exit the rate is different, with known and predictable switching points.

I have assumed a linear rate between unloaded and coilbound, which won't be the case, but is close enough for my needs.

Other than the friction of the system, there is no damping in roll other than what can be done via the warp of the chassis (i.e. the rear dampers).
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Old 31 Jan 2016, 17:05 (Ref:3610092)   #18
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Marrick Chassis'

Hi

I know this is very late but I used to own the remains of the Marrick cars (a Kent engined car and a Zetec chassis) that I redesigned the rear end as my college project. Anyway, the cars were based on the earlier Van Diemen (I think an 86/7???) but with new front ends. The cars were designed and built by RVJ Sportscars in Woking, Surrey and Rick is the man who designed the front end and ran the cars back in the early 1990's. I am not sure if RVJ (or Rick???) are still around (it was Rick running a race shop on his own pretty much) but it would be well worth looking him up. I do not have a number for him at the moment but I am sure I can find one if you can't get in contact with them. He is a hugely knowledgeable guy and my work experience at college brought about me buying the cars for my project.

Hope that helps and Good Luck. If you have the cars still would love to see some pictures of the cars in action
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