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Old 1 Jul 2018, 19:53 (Ref:3834187)   #1126
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Why did McLaren continue with Mercedes up to and including 2014, if they fell out with them in 2008/9?
Because there were no works alternatives to staying as a customer when Merc didn’t feel listened to and decided to sell their 50% shareholding to establish their own team for 2010.
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:06 (Ref:3834194)   #1127
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Because there were no works alternatives to staying as a customer when Merc didn’t feel listened to and decided to sell their 50% shareholding to establish their own team for 2010.
I always thought Mercedes decision to establish their own team, was always on the cards and nothing to do with their arrangement with McLaren. After Mercedes success with Brawn GP in 2009, Daimler AG, bought a minority stake, 45.1%, in the Brawn GP in the 2009/10 off season.
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:15 (Ref:3834197)   #1128
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They were well peed off with McL.

Invested hundreds of millions, purchased 50% of the company but McL thought that didn’t give them any say...
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:17 (Ref:3834198)   #1129
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I can't help thinking that the management matrix will have contributed to the ongoing mediocrity.How about fewer meetings and just designing and making parts that make the car go faster?The sheer quantity of data available should make it fairly easy to identify the weak points and with rapid manufacturing techniques,they ought to be able to get a bit closer to the sharp end.A sad state of affairs when they are trailing round so far from the front.

The reports of investigations are inevitably going to destabilise things for some areas of the group and will absorb resources until the process is concluded.The patience of the shareholders has been considerable but can't and won't be infinite.
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:39 (Ref:3834204)   #1130
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They were well peed off with McL.

Invested hundreds of millions, purchased 50% of the company but McL thought that didn’t give them any say...
I thought they bought a 40% share of McLaren Group of which McLaren Racing Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary? They subsequently sold their stake in 2009 before buying their share in Brawn GP.
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:45 (Ref:3834205)   #1131
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Ok maybe 40% but still the same. They got no say and were ignored, so chose to spend a massive amount more and build their own team.
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:47 (Ref:3834206)   #1132
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Ok maybe 40% but still the same. They got no say and were ignored, so chose to spend a massive amount more and build their own team.
In what respect were they ignored?
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 20:49 (Ref:3834207)   #1133
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In what respect were they ignored?
Search engines will help you!

As much about competing against them with road cars as racing IIRC. Built the Merc supercar then used the tech knowledge gained to build something without them to compete with them.

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Old 1 Jul 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3834209)   #1134
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Search engines will help you!

As much about competing against them with road cars as racing IIRC. Built the Merc supercar then used the tech knowledge gained to build something without them.
I tried googling 'Mclaren fall out with Mercedes' but mainly found articles about Ron Dennis. Though I came across one article by Joe Saward, which says:

"Things changed, however, and in 2009 Brawn-Mercedes beat McLaren-Mercedes to the World Championship. Daimler decided that it would be best to leave McLaren and buy Brawn, in order to create its own factory team. The McLaren shareholders thus bought back the Daimler shares with Mumtalakat taking an extra 20 percent and Dennis and TAG each taking 10 percent."

That's how I've always understood it. Daimler saw an opportunity set up their own works team and did so.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016...and-mclaren-2/
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 21:17 (Ref:3834212)   #1135
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Exactly. And why they decided it best to leave McLaren. If the garden was rosy they wouldn't have...
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 21:35 (Ref:3834216)   #1136
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I tried googling 'Mclaren fall out with Mercedes' but mainly found articles about Ron Dennis. Though I came across one article by Joe Saward, which says:

"Things changed, however, and in 2009 Brawn-Mercedes beat McLaren-Mercedes to the World Championship. Daimler decided that it would be best to leave McLaren and buy Brawn, in order to create its own factory team. The McLaren shareholders thus bought back the Daimler shares with Mumtalakat taking an extra 20 percent and Dennis and TAG each taking 10 percent."

That's how I've always understood it. Daimler saw an opportunity set up their own works team and did so.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016...and-mclaren-2/
The head of Mercedes Formula One, Norbert Haug, said the split was due to McLaren's intention to build the MP4-12C. "McLaren wanted to go in their own direction with their street sports car," he said. "At Mercedes we have been doing it for many years. It (McLaren's) was not our way and we found an amicable solution." Regarding F1 he said, "We continue to supply them with engines but we have created our own team. We are grateful about our many joint successes. Only Ferrari was more successful than us."


'holding the upper hand on matters like – not allowing Mercedes to advertise the success of Brawn GP – insiders believe McLaren'
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Old 1 Jul 2018, 22:06 (Ref:3834220)   #1137
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The head of Mercedes Formula One, Norbert Haug, said the split was due to McLaren's intention to build the MP4-12C. "McLaren wanted to go in their own direction with their street sports car," he said. "At Mercedes we have been doing it for many years. It (McLaren's) was not our way and we found an amicable solution." Regarding F1 he said, "We continue to supply them with engines but we have created our own team. We are grateful about our many joint successes. Only Ferrari was more successful than us."


'holding the upper hand on matters like – not allowing Mercedes to advertise the success of Brawn GP – insiders believe McLaren'
Interesting stuff, thanks for posting that.
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Old 2 Jul 2018, 17:46 (Ref:3834340)   #1138
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Zak Brown is something like 18 months in charge now. Is he the right man for the job? I have not the impression the team improves.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 00:16 (Ref:3834380)   #1139
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Zak Brown is something like 18 months in charge now. Is he the right man for the job? I have not the impression the team improves.
I would never normally say something like this here but I think Zak Brown is full of BS and has managed to worm his way into 'running' McLaren.

I've met people like him over the years. They walk the walk, talk the talk but at the end of the day, they aren't up to the job. Just watching him at the Austrian GP, running from the pit wall to do whatever says it all.

Forget the matrix management, he's the problem.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 11:05 (Ref:3834421)   #1140
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Forget the matrix management, he's the problem.
While plausible, Brown is responsible for commercial rather technical aspects of McLaren so it being Brown's fault that the car is poor seems illogical.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 12:19 (Ref:3834430)   #1141
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While plausible, Brown is responsible for commercial rather technical aspects of McLaren so it being Brown's fault that the car is poor seems illogical.
Is he not the Team Principal and CEO?
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 13:38 (Ref:3834437)   #1142
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OK, heres my prediction, Boullier will be sacked after the british GP...…..its a high speed circuit and will expose the flaws of McLaren for the public, sponsors and share-holders clearly to see, not to mention that Alonso is getting vocal again, it would not surprise me if Alonso walked of his own accord too...…..McLaren have just blown $100M on the Renault engine, it was a complete waste of time, so heads now must roll...….

McLaren need to get Pat Symmonds or a big design name on board at McLaren ASAP in order that the same problems can be eradicated on the 2019 car, I feel the 2018 season is a write-off already, hence I feel the race is on to save their 2019 season...….before its too late.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 16:56 (Ref:3834458)   #1143
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OK, heres my prediction, Boullier will be sacked after the british GP...…..its a high speed circuit and will expose the flaws of McLaren for the public, sponsors and share-holders clearly to see, not to mention that Alonso is getting vocal again, it would not surprise me if Alonso walked of his own accord too...…..McLaren have just blown $100M on the Renault engine, it was a complete waste of time, so heads now must roll...….

McLaren need to get Pat Symmonds or a big design name on board at McLaren ASAP in order that the same problems can be eradicated on the 2019 car, I feel the 2018 season is a write-off already, hence I feel the race is on to save their 2019 season...….before its too late.
Why Pat Symmonds? He never designed anything of note and was involved in Crashgate.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 17:14 (Ref:3834460)   #1144
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While plausible, Brown is responsible for commercial rather technical aspects of McLaren so it being Brown's fault that the car is poor seems illogical.
Brown is CEO.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 17:28 (Ref:3834462)   #1145
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I would never normally say something like this here but I think Zak Brown is full of BS and has managed to worm his way into 'running' McLaren.

I've met people like him over the years. They walk the walk, talk the talk but at the end of the day, they aren't up to the job. Just watching him at the Austrian GP, running from the pit wall to do whatever says it all.

Forget the matrix management, he's the problem.
He's indeed good in talking, real marketing man full of plans like Indy 500 and Le Mans but could better concentrate on the F1 team.
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Old 3 Jul 2018, 19:32 (Ref:3834467)   #1146
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Brown is the CEO and whilst he may not be directly in charge of everything, a CEOs entire work philosophy is important. McLaren is the best example of that - Ron Dennis n'all.

I don't really have an opinion of Brown, because I don't know enough about him. But BJs comments aren't the first in that sort of style. I think a lot of people think that of Brown.
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Old 4 Jul 2018, 00:10 (Ref:3834499)   #1147
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OK, heres my prediction, Boullier will be sacked after the british GP...…..its a high speed circuit and will expose the flaws of McLaren for the public, sponsors and share-holders clearly to see, not to mention that Alonso is getting vocal again, it would not surprise me if Alonso walked of his own accord too...…..McLaren have just blown $100M on the Renault engine, it was a complete waste of time, so heads now must roll...….

McLaren need to get Pat Symmonds or a big design name on board at McLaren ASAP in order that the same problems can be eradicated on the 2019 car, I feel the 2018 season is a write-off already, hence I feel the race is on to save their 2019 season...….before its too late.
I predict a grand total of 0 of these things will happen.
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Old 4 Jul 2018, 02:14 (Ref:3834515)   #1148
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Is he not the Team Principal and CEO?
I see.

It should be first order of business to hire some quality (and cheap) young drivers -- say a Vandoorne and Norris pairing, and spend the kitty on top notch engineering staff then. I would also cut costs by buying the Renault gearbox and suspension package instead of building their own gearbox and rear suspension -- McLaren should position to align themselves as the Renault b-team, much as Force India is the Mercedes b-team.

Much like Williams, McLaren need to be realistic about their position as a customer team (such as Force India, Sauber and HAAS are accepting of) and stop operating with the unnecessary overheads of a "works team".


1. Be realistic about status as a minor team, like Jordan were above. Jordan were very sensible in spending as little as absolutely possible on driving staff!
2. The only way is up! Look how strong Force India are now!

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Old 4 Jul 2018, 08:24 (Ref:3834539)   #1149
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If you think Brown is responsible for the car being slow you're nuts IMO.

That's like saying Mr Warburton is responsible when your toast doesn't come out right.
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Old 4 Jul 2018, 09:22 (Ref:3834547)   #1150
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I predict a grand total of 0 of these things will happen.
Boullier has resigned.
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