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Old 22 Jan 2004, 19:52 (Ref:847343)   #1
big ears
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The Toyota's New TF104 Rear Wing

Reading in autosport today i saw a picture of the new wing compared to last years. I noticed that the end plate is longer. Why would this Help to creat downforce. Also the New Renault have done in a similar way?
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Old 22 Jan 2004, 20:12 (Ref:847369)   #2
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That is due to the rules that mandate the rear wing endplates be bigger (supposed to increase the area for sponsorship on the car). If you look closely, all cars will have bigger endplates this year.

As for how it effects performance, it can indeed help with downforce if used correctly, and it can hurt you for drag...
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Old 22 Jan 2004, 22:06 (Ref:847497)   #3
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its a tricky one this.
theoretically using a larger endplate should allow you to create more downforce for the same drag level, but the bigger endplate creates more drag due to larger surface area.
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Old 23 Jan 2004, 08:17 (Ref:847892)   #4
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are there limits on the radius of the leading and trailing edges of wings in F!? I know there are in some series
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Old 23 Jan 2004, 12:23 (Ref:848136)   #5
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I haven't heard of any limits on edge radii... it there are, it is pretty tiny, as you can tell from pictures of them...
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Old 23 Jan 2004, 18:30 (Ref:848530)   #6
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Thanks very much that helps. I was also looking at the 2003 wing. Why would the cut out on the side of the wing help. Wouldn't creat less downforce
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Old 23 Jan 2004, 20:05 (Ref:848627)   #7
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there are on the front wings endplates (5mm radius), to help stop cutting of tyres ion a collision. But I don't belive this is so on the rear.

On the '03 rear wings, the gap lets air into the section just ontop of the wing.
This accelerates the airflow, creating more downforce.

Hope it helps
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Old 23 Jan 2004, 20:29 (Ref:848654)   #8
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[img]www.toyota-f1.com/public/gallery/imagecollection_03europe_1.html[img]

Won't the wing let air out quicker than if the end wing plate was complete
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 11:57 (Ref:849238)   #9
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No. I'm not sure of the exact principal, but it is something to do with the pressure differences between the two setion, someone else might be able to help here (I'm getting into my confused section over which part is high pressure and low pressure, and aerodynamists should be able to solve that )
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 12:19 (Ref:849251)   #10
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The upper side of the wing is hte hig hpressure side.

I am guessing here (from what I have figured out in class), but this is what i think may be happening:

As the length of the endplate is increased, drag will be increases as already stated. This is to do with boundary layers and etc (something i just cannot figure out - mental block). Smething about the thickness of the boundary layer

The only reason that I can see for having that cut out on the top of the endplate is something to with Vortex control.

The designers must have decided that they can use the vortex generated by air flowing off the side of the wing to somehow draw the air out of the underside of the wing element and also increase the curvature.

The theory about pressure differences is not 100% true. It is mathematically correct and all that (and perfectly good for what most of us do) but the best way is to think about the curvature of the air. Downforce is related to the amount that you can change the direction of the air (see pic). The wing tip vortices will be pushing up along the end plate and will therefore also pull the airflow from under the wing up at a slightly steep angle. The ends of the wing will probably be at a steeper angle too as the vortex induced curvature will theoretically reduce the attack angle.
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 12:20 (Ref:849253)   #11
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pic from "Competition Car Downforce"
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 14:03 (Ref:849305)   #12
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Thanks. I am reading the "Competition Car Downforce" for a project at school.
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 14:08 (Ref:849308)   #13
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its a good book. I have used it quite a lot for uni work. another book to think about is Race Car Aerodynamics: Designing for Speed by Joseph Katz. More technical but another view point on some of the more complicated things...
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 16:04 (Ref:849376)   #14
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I have also got that one too. But i thought the other was a bit more basic, to start be off. If you don't mind be asking what are taking taking at uni? Because i want to do aeronautics but in Motorsport, but i have been told to do Mechanical engineering because aeronautics is a small field. What do you think.
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Old 24 Jan 2004, 17:11 (Ref:849427)   #15
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I am doing motorsport engineering and design Swansea Institute of Higher Ed. could be a good course but very very badly run

I am no expert, but i would guess there are two ways into it. either go and do aeronautical engineering degree or do a mechanical (though i would guess that a motorsport degree may be more relevent but much less specific) and then go on to do a Masters where you specialise in a particular field. Cranfield in central england (somewhere) have a good masters program.

It is however, very hard work and not cheap as it is a private venture but is recognised as the industry standard. Most F1 teams now expect a good masters or doctorate from what I understand...

aeronautics is a huge field made up of very definable parts. You have to be very good at maths as it can be very complicated and in depth but if you can do it, it is very rewarding and the principles are the same wheather you want to design cars, planes or boats.

ps. there are other options such as maval architecture and marine design that may also teach the same thing. Strathclyde uni near Glasgow and Southampton are both very good apparently. Strathclyde also does a lot of sailing, a amte from home won the student worlds over the summer...

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Old 24 Jan 2004, 21:37 (Ref:849606)   #16
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Thanks, That very usefull. Only about 6 years of work to go then!
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