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Old 16 Jun 2017, 20:42 (Ref:3742326)   #76
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I only started watching IndyCar in 2014, so I appreciate that I do not have the knowledge of previous circumstances that others possess, but after a week of thought I believe that last week's race was just a perfect storm. New surface, lack of testing, lack of driver consensus, dodgy tires, competition cautions etc. all contributed to the mess.

From memory, I was much more on edge during the Fontana 2015 race, however I'm sure a lot can be done to improve the show. From a European's point of view, I believe that IndyCar is usually incredibly proactive in dealing with this sort of stuff and it's probably the toughest series in the world to govern.

I don't agree with pack racing, but every now and then if it comes up by accident then so be it; they are racing drivers after all.
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Old 17 Jun 2017, 02:28 (Ref:3742403)   #77
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
but pack racing is still not the only concern with Texas.
What is the other concern?

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Originally Posted by broadrun96
Apparently, after first the payout is less than last on the PGA tour. 30k, 20k was Robin Miller's estimate for second and third. And almost 2 million in damaged cars.
Don't disagree with the need to increase race prize money however what the above and Millers comments did not take into account is the Leaders Circle money which pays out $1,000,000 + per car for full season entrants.
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Old 17 Jun 2017, 03:54 (Ref:3742415)   #78
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What is the other concern?
If that's not apparent for you it never will be. You've agreed to disagree, so let's leave it there.


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Don't disagree with the need to increase race prize money however what the above and Millers comments did not take into account is the Leaders Circle money which pays out $1,000,000 + per car for full season entrants.
This particular event was a net loss for owners and will have more lasting impacts beyond the race, regardless of who got paid what. Unnecessary risk of life for "peanuts". That's a great business model.

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Old 17 Jun 2017, 05:25 (Ref:3742437)   #79
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This particular event was a net loss for owners and will have more lasting impacts beyond the race, regardless of who got paid what. Unnecessary risk of life for "peanuts". That's a great business model.
Are you factoring in Leader Circle guaranteed money into your equation here.

No doubt teams lost money at Texas - but no different than Pheonix or Indy
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Old 17 Jun 2017, 13:21 (Ref:3742572)   #80
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Where's the info on Indy and PIR?
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Old 17 Jun 2017, 17:33 (Ref:3743001)   #81
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Are you factoring in Leader Circle guaranteed money into your equation here.

No doubt teams lost money at Texas - but no different than Pheonix or Indy
Everyone involved pointed this out as a HUGE loser for the teams so I'm thinking they might actually know that these damages are really painful. No one mentioned this for either previous race so I'm thinking teams weren't really concerned about the cash at those races. The quality of racing at PIR, yes that was a huge concern. And the winner's circle money didn't help a few teams, there are a few that don't qualify for it yet. Those who get it have already calculated that money in to the annual budget so using it to say damages will be covered is completely ignoring how the series works.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 02:00 (Ref:3744025)   #82
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Where's the info on Indy and PIR?
For example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM7VCURsoIw

You don't think that Andretti Autosport, Coyne etc lost money at Phoenix?

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Everyone involved pointed this out as a HUGE loser for the teams so I'm thinking they might actually know that these damages are really painful. No one mentioned this for either previous race so I'm thinking teams weren't really concerned about the cash at those races.
No one is doubting that the cost of repairing cars at Texas was expensive nor painful. My point is that the same thing happened at Phoenix and Indy.

The cash is the same for Phoenix as it was for Texas - so I am not sure why its an issue for Texas but not for Phoenix?

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And the winner's circle money didn't help a few teams, there are a few that don't qualify for it yet. Those who get it have already calculated that money in to the annual budget so using it to say damages will be covered is completely ignoring how the series works.
I disagree that this is ignoring how the series works - this is 100% how the series works. During the mid to late 2000's, Indycar reduced the event purses and fed them into the Leaders Circle fund to guarantee money to teams and have them not rely on the variable event to event prize money.

If you aren't factoring Leaders Circle money into your crash/repair/maintenance budget is ludicrous

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Old 18 Jun 2017, 02:37 (Ref:3744052)   #83
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For example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM7VCURsoIw

You don't think that Andretti Autosport, Coyne etc lost money at Phoenix?



No one is doubting that the cost of repairing cars at Texas was expensive nor painful. My point is that the same thing happened at Phoenix and Indy.

The cash is the same for Phoenix as it was for Texas - so I am not sure why its an issue for Texas but not for Phoenix?



I disagree that this is ignoring how the series works - this is 100% how the series works. During the mid to late 2000's, Indycar reduced the event purses and fed them into the Leaders Circle fund to guarantee money to teams and have them not rely on the variable event to event prize money.

If you aren't factoring Leaders Circle money into your crash/repair/maintenance budget is ludicrous
Let's see Texas had what Pruett and Miller both estimated to be the highest damage bill ever, not even close to any other race. If you read about the series instead of spouting off you might actually learn something. 1.8 million is the LOW estimate and recent tweets indicated prob closer to 3 million was spent repairing cars after that race. No where ever close to PIR's bill so comparing the two shows you just want to be right. You're wrong, foolishless wrong but I'm done with the discussion. I can read, I rely on experts and all have said Texas could have crushed teams and if it happens twice in a season teams would fold.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 03:03 (Ref:3744067)   #84
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For example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM7VCURsoIw

You don't think that Andretti Autosport, Coyne etc lost money at Phoenix?
I'm sure they did; about half as many as did at Texas. PIR was driver error/racing incident. Texas was due to negligence on the part of the series at a place not like any other they race at. They aren't comparable.

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No one is doubting that the cost of repairing cars at Texas was expensive nor painful. My point is that the same thing happened at Phoenix and Indy.

The cash is the same for Phoenix as it was for Texas - so I am not sure why its an issue for Texas but not for Phoenix?
It was a bigger issue than the normal increased risks at Texas this year and was totally avoidable at Texas while it was simply one racing incident at PIR.

Texas is just as dangerous as Indy, for a fraction of coin and prestige of winning. Not worth it.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 07:36 (Ref:3744266)   #85
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I remember a clean pack race in which drivers showed a lot of respect to each other. That happened at Chicagoland back in 2010 and is remembered for Sarah Fisher having led a few laps.
At Texas, it showed that many of today's drivers are not good pack racers. I feel when it comes to protecting other drivers in such situations, drivers who have run in IndyLights in the past, really are at an advantage over those who haven't. Look at Gabby Chaves. He drove a clean race and finished 5th for a new team in only their 2nd race. How come this guy does not have a full season ride?

The replay I have seen of this past Texas race reminded me most of what I saw when I re-watched an old IRL race from the late 90s that was held at Dover Downs. That Dover race is remembered for being the last IRL start of Dr. Jack Miller who got taken out in a crash of 3 cars, and it was a real "crash fest". Yet, still, there was more green flag racing there than at IndyCar's only visit to NOLA Motorsports Park.

But I digress. At Texas, drivers were way too impatient and not cautious enough. Add to that the fact that both the series and the tire manufacturer didn't prepare near well enough for the new surface. That resulted in too many open variables and an unpredictable level of danger to drivers and machinery which, luckily, only resulted in a hefty repair bill for many of the teams.

Even with the limited amount of tire testing that had happened, a lot of the turmoil on track could have been prevented if there had not been those "competition cautions" to fix the problem with tire wear. Why didn't Firestone just order the teams to bring cars in after a certain number of laps? That could have happened under green flag conditions and would have enabled the field to spread out more, whereas the yellow flag periods just bunched the pack back together time in time again. Sure, it's much easier to organize a full course caution if you are race control than to have to potentially black-flag every car individually for a mandatory tire stop but it would have made for a better and most importantly, a safer race.

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Old 18 Jun 2017, 15:06 (Ref:3744828)   #86
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Let's see Texas had what Pruett and Miller both estimated to be the highest damage bill ever, not even close to any other race. If you read about the series instead of spouting off you might actually learn something. 1.8 million is the LOW estimate and recent tweets indicated prob closer to 3 million was spent repairing cars after that race.
As long we are using 'tweets' as supporting evidence I am not holding much weight in the argument.

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No where ever close to PIR's bill so comparing the two shows you just want to be right. You're wrong, foolishless wrong but I'm done with the discussion. I can read, I rely on experts and all have said Texas could have crushed teams and if it happens twice in a season teams would fold.
Just to be clear - for Coyne it has happened twice. Its actually happened 3 times since Phoenix for them. Its cost him a lot of money - no one is arguing against that notion.

What the concern is here - that apparently its different crashing cars and spending money at Phoenix and Indy compared to Texas I don't understand this as it creates the same whole in the budget. Write a tub off at Texas and its negligence, stupidity and unnecessary but write one off at Phoenix and its just one of those racing things

Its the same outcome for the teams like DCR and AA.

It appears that there is a separate agenda against Texas which crash damage is being used to push such an agenda
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 15:20 (Ref:3744838)   #87
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As long we are using 'tweets' as supporting evidence I am not holding much weight in the argument.

Just to be clear - for Coyne it has happened twice. Its actually happened 3 times since Phoenix for them. Its cost him a lot of money - no one is arguing against that notion.

What the concern is here - that apparently its different crashing cars and spending money at Phoenix and Indy compared to Texas I don't understand this as it creates the same whole in the budget. Write a tub off at Texas and its negligence, stupidity and unnecessary but write one off at Phoenix and its just one of those racing things

Its the same outcome for the teams like DCR and AA.

It appears that there is a separate agenda against Texas which crash damage is being used to push such an agenda
The difference with crashing at Texas, compared to Phoenix or Indy, is Coyne lost both cars. Plus this was on top of both the Phoenix and Indy crashes and particularly Indy, where the tub had to be written off.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 17:21 (Ref:3744899)   #88
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What the concern is here - that apparently its different crashing cars and spending money at Phoenix and Indy compared to Texas I don't understand this as it creates the same whole in the budget. Write a tub off at Texas and its negligence, stupidity and unnecessary but write one off at Phoenix and its just one of those racing things

Its the same outcome for the teams like DCR and AA.

It appears that there is a separate agenda against Texas which crash damage is being used to push such an agenda
Let's see, disregarding tweets shows you're clueless or intentionally pigheaded about modern communication. Sorry that doesn't fit your idea of journalism but professionals do release information that way.

And no, it's not an anti-texas stance. It's a stop ignoring the fact that millions were lost because the cars and ESP the tires were not suited to the track. A FACT that has been known since last year, Firestone could not retest to gather more data and the cars could not be driven as they should. Management decided, because they like that a$$hat of a promoter at TMS, that he race shall go on. No, no it shouldn't. Texas has always been a crap race, the first year drivers had medical problems and vision problems for weeks after the race. Everyone knew the tires would be destroyed but they pushed on, everyone knew the track would not be conducive to pack racing, a lost art in open-wheel as it is, with these cars. High banked ovals are not what these cars do but this obsession to run them and WASTE money shows cluelessness and a personal ego stroke fest for upper management. There were probably more people at the Taco Bell in Indy that night then at Texas but they go back. It has never had the attendance of PIR so why waste the effort.

And why can we not decide one is worse than the other?? NO ONE said PIR wasn't a waste. Texas was a waste beyond all measure and the dumbest thing Indycars have done since listening to Tony George.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 02:51 (Ref:3745049)   #89
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Let's see, disregarding tweets shows you're clueless or intentionally pigheaded about modern communication. Sorry that doesn't fit your idea of journalism but professionals do release information that way.
Which professionals are they? POTUS?

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And no, it's not an anti-texas stance. It's a stop ignoring the fact that millions were lost because the cars and ESP the tires were not suited to the track. A FACT that has been known since last year, Firestone could not retest to gather more data and the cars could not be driven as they should.
I am not sure who is ignoring that? What I heard was fix the aero, test the tires more and race next June.

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Management decided, because they like that a$$hat of a promoter at TMS, that he race shall go on. No, no it shouldn't.
So the race should have been cancelled?

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Texas has always been a crap race
Was 2016 a crap race?

For example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8KNya9aeA

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the first year drivers had medical problems and vision problems for weeks after the race.
Wasn't this in 2001? Different cars and different formula's? Not sure of the relevance to what we saw a couple of weeks ago?

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There were probably more people at the Taco Bell in Indy that night then at Texas but they go back. It has never had the attendance of PIR so why waste the effort.
So to clarify you are saying that PIR has better attendance than Texas?

Texas has had some of the strongest crowds in Indycar outside of the 500 for many many years. A lot lot more than PIR
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:23 (Ref:3745149)   #90
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So to clarify you are saying that PIR has better attendance than Texas?

Texas has had some of the strongest crowds in Indycar outside of the 500 for many many years. A lot lot more than PIR
Do you have the attendance figures to back that up?
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 12:18 (Ref:3745188)   #91
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Which professionals are they? POTUS?

Robin Miller, Marshall Pruett

I am not sure who is ignoring that? What I heard was fix the aero, test the tires more and race next June.

The tires were tested and blistered like mad still

So the race should have been cancelled?



Was 2016 a crap race?

For example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8KNya9aeA

2016 was an exception, most have been wreckfests or snoozes

Wasn't this in 2001? Different cars and different formula's? Not sure of the relevance to what we saw a couple of weeks ago?



So to clarify you are saying that PIR has better attendance than Texas?

Texas has had some of the strongest crowds in Indycar outside of the 500 for many many years. A lot lot more than PIR
PIR has because of TERRIBLE promotion and new access had drop-offs from what used to be one of the best attended events outside of Indy. Texas on the other hand draws close to what Iowa does, not exactly packing the house when the track is huge 181k vs 30k. When your attendance rivals a track 1/3 the length and 1/6th the capacity I wouldn't call that a strong crowd, yes it was up from previous years but not exactly a packed house like Indy. Which FYI was estimated to be down 20k by a few and the viewer numbers were as well
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 12:32 (Ref:3745196)   #92
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Do you have the attendance figures to back that up?
Interesting request - especially considering previous discussion regarding providing evidence.

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If the IndyCar paddock could send a message to the few thousand souls who showed up at Phoenix International Raceway, it would be brief and heartfelt:

We’re sorry.

“They should refund everyone’s money,” one prominent driver said afterward.

There were fewer people in attendance this year, and the ones who came were put off by 22 laps of caution (why not throw the red flag?) following a first-lap, five-car pileup and then by the drudgery of watching cars run in place.
http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story...debacle-050117
2016 crowd was estimated at 18,500
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sport...018/308052001/
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 12:38 (Ref:3745199)   #93
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Interesting request - especially considering previous discussion regarding providing evidence.



2016 crowd was estimated at 18,500
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sport...018/308052001/
So if Texas, as estimated by Miller and co at Racer was around Iowa not much higher, not exactly the high demand event you desperately want it to be
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 12:51 (Ref:3745203)   #94
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PIR has because of TERRIBLE promotion and new access had drop-offs from what used to be one of the best attended events outside of Indy. Texas on the other hand draws close to what Iowa does, not exactly packing the house when the track is huge 181k vs 30k.
Hang on - your post outlined that "Texas never had the attendance of PIR" - why the backtracking?

Clearly it did in 2016 and 2017. Apples with apples.

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yes it was up from previous years but not exactly a packed house like Indy.
Who is comparing any Indycar event crowd to Indy?

In regards to the tire testing - Firestone had one test only. Common consensus is have more testing and develop a new compound and get back racing.

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2016 was an exception, most have been wreckfests or snoozes
Out of interest - which one of these races were wreckfests or snoozes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI-5xyK9oeg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxaHICyFuVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rTGLG9yu0
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 12:54 (Ref:3745206)   #95
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Hang on - your post outlined that "Texas never had the attendance of PIR" - why the backtracking?

Clearly it did in 2016 and 2017. Apples with apples.



Who is comparing any Indycar event crowd to Indy?

In regards to the tire testing - Firestone had one test only. Common consensus is have more testing and develop a new compound and get back racing.

Out of interest - which one of these races were wreckfests or snoozes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI-5xyK9oeg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxaHICyFuVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rTGLG9yu0

That's capacity NOT attendance, there's no backtracking. Texas has never had 181k at the track for openwheel. And PIR used to be packed at 50k. far cry from 20k at a 180k track.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 13:35 (Ref:3745220)   #96
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I am talking about 2016 and 2017.

No good bringing up what PIR 'used to have' - it was a different time, different formula and different drivers. Apples with apples mate.

Texas has and currently does have a lot more in the stands than PIR - despite your previous posts.
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Old 20 Jun 2017, 02:21 (Ref:3745407)   #97
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I love oval racing and OW cars on ovals. I just don't like OW cars at Texas. I understand that even though I don't like this track/race, some do. That's fine with me.

Looking at posts on this forum from previous 4 races (because this forum is the epitome of correct opinions), most opinions (outside my own) of Texas seem to be either "crazy scary" or "meh".

Here are some “excuses” for questionable driving standards which leads to a few more questions for the current management of the series.
http://sports.usatoday.com/2017/06/1...-half-of-2017/

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Four races in 14 days – the Indy 500, the Detroit Grand Prix doubleheader and the oval race at Texas Motor Speedway – put a strain on everyone.
RE: attendance I doubt we'll ever see any from Texas (and I've been looking), I’d expect them to be similar to PIR, Pocono, to lightly higher.

However, according to Miller/Pruett podcast, NBC Ratings were up this year from last year's Texas race, fwiw. That could be due to many factors including the postponement of last year's event to the sheer bat$hit craziness of this years, or the general uptick in series popularity.

Here's what they looked like at Barber and Road America last year and Detroit this year. Granted, it's a little out of context here, but attendance numbers are tough to find. It does leave me wondering what is going with the speedway attendances, outside of Indy. This is perhaps best left to the “state of IndyCar” thread….

Detroit: 100K over the weekend (combined with IMSA) – (30K for Sunday and Race 2) http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/201...gure-of-83765/

Barber: 86K over the weekend (30K for Race day)
http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/...ation-Records/

Road America is around 50K for race day
http://www.indycar.com/News/2016/06/...r-Road-America
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Old 20 Jun 2017, 13:34 (Ref:3745519)   #98
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Interesting request - especially considering previous discussion regarding providing evidence.

2016 crowd was estimated at 18,500
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sport...018/308052001/
Not at all. You said at the end of your post #89: "Texas has had some of the strongest crowds in Indycar outside of the 500 for many many years. A lot lot more than PIR.", so I merely asked if you had the attendance figures.

I was hoping for this year's attendance figures for PIR and TMS.
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Old 20 Jun 2017, 15:07 (Ref:3745530)   #99
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Not at all. You said at the end of your post #89: "Texas has had some of the strongest crowds in Indycar outside of the 500 for many many years. A lot lot more than PIR.", so I merely asked if you had the attendance figures.

I was hoping for this year's attendance figures for PIR and TMS.
That's this year's PIR attendance, noted in the article as being similar to 2016. I know because that's the one I posted in the PIR race thread, and likely the only place it is found in writing.

It's frustrating to this convo because very few speedways release figures, if I'm correct. Looking for Iowa's last year, it's stated here they don't release figures, but it's becoming a "crown jewel".

http://www.thegazette.com/subject/sp...eries-20150719

Again, I think I'm delving into state of IndyCar with attempts to find numbers for comparisons...
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Old 20 Jun 2017, 15:21 (Ref:3745532)   #100
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That's this year's PIR attendance, noted in the article as being similar to 2016. I know because that's the one I posted in the PIR race thread, and likely the only place it is found in writing.

It's frustrating to this convo because very few speedways release figures, if I'm correct. Looking for Iowa's last year, it's stated here they don't release figures, but it's becoming a "crown jewel".

http://www.thegazette.com/subject/sp...eries-20150719

Again, I think I'm delving into state of IndyCar with attempts to find numbers for comparisons...
As I said, I was hoping for this year's attendance figures for PIR and TMS. Then a comparison can be made.
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