WTCC rules from 2009 - what do we think ?

[the interpreter]

Autosport says that WTCC will go RWD for all models in 2009. What does everyone think of this?
Should WTCC go FWD instead - and then only BMW and (Lexus?) would have to change.
Will the change to RWD be the end of the spectacular FWD specialists - i.e. Yvan Muller?

[Ellmau]

Why should all models have to be RWD or FWD? Why can't there be a mix, like there is now? Won't setting it all to the one or the other make it less interesting for car manufacturers and privateers to enter the WTCC?

[Speed-King]

Really stupid if they do it.

(Unless Seat, Chevy and Alfa have RWD production models lined-up anyway.)

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

Why should all models have to be RWD or FWD? Why can't there be a mix, like there is now? Won't setting it all to the one or the other make it less interesting for car manufacturers and privateers to enter the WTCC?

If all cars have RWD (or FWD) there's no need for rule breaks (and we have no longer to listen to the whining of Mr Puig ).

At the forum of dtm.com I read currently 9 manufacturers are involved in forming the 2009 tech regulations. One of the hot items is to bring S2000 and rally S2000 closer so manufacturers can develop 1 car for both without major changes.


IMO it's a good idea to go for all-cars-RWD. An advantage is that it allows more powerful cars.

I would like to see in 2009:
- All cars RWD
- 2.5L 350 bhp engines
- saloons (hatchback allowed but no rule breaks)
- shape of cars more like super tourers but without the importance of aerodynamics like during the ST days.

[M-Power]

I believe that BMW never change there concept for example. And also other manufacturers are on the same line. For the competitions a close regulations is better but for the fan it is also interesting the difference.. I am also sad that the awd is forbitten!

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by FIRE

If all cars have RWD (or FWD) there's no need for rule breaks (and we have no longer to listen to the whining of Mr Puig ).

At the forum of dtm.com I read currently 9 manufacturers are involved in forming the 2009 tech regulations. One of the hot items is to bring S2000 and rally S2000 closer so manufacturers can develop 1 car for both without major changes.


IMO it's a good idea to go for all-cars-RWD. An advantage is that it allows more powerful cars.

I would like to see in 2009:
- All cars RWD
- 2.5L 350 bhp engines
- saloons (hatchback allowed but no rule breaks)
- shape of cars more like super tourers but without the importance of aerodynamics like during the ST days.

I stand by your side at 100% mate!!! Best I've heard in ages!

FIRE for president!

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by FIRE

If all cars have RWD (or FWD) there's no need for rule breaks (and we have no longer to listen to the whining of Mr Puig ).

Rule breaks like? :S

Originally Posted by FIRE

I would like to see in 2009:
- All cars RWD
- 2.5L 350 bhp engines
- saloons (hatchback allowed but no rule breaks)
- shape of cars more like super tourers but without the importance of aerodynamics like during the ST days.

I like the look of that. Only I would leave the "Hatchback allowed" part out

[racer69]

Cracking idea if it comes off, though one hopes they might raise the engine size abit (or draw up some equalisation rules to allow differing capacities)

Originally Posted by the interpreter

Will the change to RWD be the end of the spectacular FWD specialists - i.e. Yvan Muller?

Yvan didn't seem to have too much trouble with RWD at Sandown in 2005 in the Triple 8 Falcon

Originally Posted by Ellmau

Rule breaks like? :S

rule breaks like allowing Seat to run a flat bottom last year, and letting them run a higher compression ratio engine this year than the rules actually allow for....

The rule breaks given to Chevrolet back in 2005/6...

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I would like to see in 2009:
- All cars RWD
- 2.5L 350 bhp engines
- saloons (hatchback allowed but no rule breaks)
- shape of cars more like super tourers but without the importance of aerodynamics like during the ST days.

And how many of the current manufacturers produce a car to that Spec, or are likely to do so by 2009?
BMW, Lexus (private cars in the BTCC)

Of the rest, I can't see them building a new model from scratch just to go racing.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

And how many of the current manufacturers produce a car to that Spec, or are likely to do so by 2009?
BMW, Lexus (private cars in the BTCC)

Of the rest, I can't see them building a new model from scratch just to go racing.

Manufacturers who have no RWD cars can rebuild FWD car to RWD. In rally S2000 they rebuild FWD cars to AWD. Why can't they do this in S2000?

Most manufacturers have 2.3L or 2.5L engines so I don't see a problem to switch to 2.5L.

[duke_toaster]

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

There's a difference between rebuilding cars to 4WD for rallying - 4WD is necessary for rally, RWD isn't for paved surfaces.

Keep S2000 how it is.

[Valker]

And why is 4wd necessary for rallying?

How ever, all-RWD WTCC would be great. FWD ain't a real (race)car... and some more power (bigger engines) would be nice too. But in my opinion, cars look quite nice as they are (or at least sedans do) - ST were somewhat dull looking machines.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Most manufacturers have 2.3L or 2.5L engines so I don't see a problem to switch to 2.5L.

Isnt the Chevy engine based on a 1.8 litre block? The model they use does not need to be 2.0 litre (or 2.5 in this case), they can use a smaller engine as the base and still make it 2.0 (2.5) litres. I dont even think the engine needs to come from the same model, it can come from a compleatly different car, as long as its from the same manufacturer. So anything from 2.0 up to 2.5 litre engines from any model would make the cut and then placed in a suitable chassie, what manufacter does NOT have that?

So a FWD Alfa 159 would be converted to RWD and increased to 2.5 litre. It would give a much more sporty image, and they dont need to build a totally new car, I cant see why any manufacturer would NOT want to join on that ship!

So ScotsBrutesFan and duke_toaster, your posts makes absolutely no sense at all to me!

[Ellmau]

I'm sorry, i'm not technical at all, but what has the amount of engine power to do with RWD or FWD? I can imagine it's harder to use the full power of an engine in corners with FWD cars, because the same axle/tyres have to do the steering as well. But is that it, or is there more to it?

[JMeissner]

I think it sounds nice. RWD is the way to go if choosing only one.

It would sort out a lot of problems. And as for some of the manufacturers not having the models in RWD, just look at DTM where its working perfectly.

[broadrun96]

Not able to watch WTCC here in the US other than some races late in te off-season sometimes, but this is kinda sounding like they are trying to ring NASCAR to the WTCC. Most NASCAR street cars are FWD with I4s and V6s and FWD but come race day magically RWD and monster V8s. I think any series should be run what you build, be it FWD, RWD or AWD, but then some balancing is needed to keep Audi from showing up and dominating. Sorry just a few thoughts from a wishful fan here.

[Koulle]

The races are streamed live on WTCC's website so you don't have to wait until the off-season.

As for the planned rules for 2009, well I would like to see different variations in technology, including different drivelines, but if it compromises the racing then I can see why more equal rules might be needed.

It's going to come down to what the manufacturers want, do they want the racing performances to be more equal (more equal chance of winning) or do they want more variables (more technical freedom, marketing etc).

[GTRMagic]

So... for any non-RWD cars... they will be like a silhouette sports sedan... with a fabricated floorpan to accomodate a rear drive gearbox/tailshaft/diff housing/suspension that have absolutely no relationship to the road going model

Sounds expensive... mega expensive... unless there are control parts or control specifications being introduced...

Now if only you could buy RWD versions on the road

[bil588]

I'd prefer rwd. I'm glad Cadillac dumped fwd for rwd and awd.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

I think it sounds nice. RWD is the way to go if choosing only one.

It would sort out a lot of problems. And as for some of the manufacturers not having the models in RWD, just look at DTM where its working perfectly.

Yes, but DTM is a completely different raceseries. That's not even remotely connected to the road car version.

[JMeissner]

As for costs, just as GTRMagic says, it could be less expensive if they go control parts.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Isnt the Chevy engine based on a 1.8 litre block? The model they use does not need to be 2.0 litre (or 2.5 in this case), they can use a smaller engine as the base and still make it 2.0 (2.5) litres. I dont even think the engine needs to come from the same model, it can come from a compleatly different car, as long as its from the same manufacturer. So anything from 2.0 up to 2.5 litre engines from any model would make the cut and then placed in a suitable chassie, what manufacter does NOT have that?

So a FWD Alfa 159 would be converted to RWD and increased to 2.5 litre. It would give a much more sporty image, and they dont need to build a totally new car, I cant see why any manufacturer would NOT want to join on that ship!

So ScotsBrutesFan and duke_toaster, your posts makes absolutely no sense at all to me!

The current WTCC rules are that the engine must be based on an existing engine in that model, hence Chevy not having a 2 litre model are using a modified 1.8. (Just as I believe Vauxhall are in the BTCC...indeed might even be the same engine block).

But the fact that so many cars could be converted is taking away from the fact that the WTCC is essentially a production based series. Production specials for want of a better description.

To convert front wheel drive cars to rear, just for the sake of racing, would then make it a series for purpose built racing cars...whether that included control parts or not.

The whole point of manufacturer involvement is that the cars are instantly recognisable as the road model, including the front or rear wheel drive nature of the car.
So I go back to my point how many manufacturers would want to mess around with their own models just to go racing.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

So I go back to my point how many manufacturers would want to mess around with their own models just to go racing.

Obviously 9 at this very moment, according to FIRE, which is 5-6 more then whats in WTCC atm. I dont think the manufactueres care if they have to convert form FWD to RWD in marketing point of view; I really dont, as I said, it will give a more sporty image, if anything.

Another good thing with this is that maybe some manufactrer, as a result of RWD regs, makes road going specials to honor succesful cars (as happend in WRC, and latest now Aston Martin for thier LeMans win), which makes it so much more fun for us that drives RWD cars on the road.

And calling Y Müller a FWD specialist isnt really fair, as good driver as he is, he can drive anything, FWD, RWD, 4WD even 4 wheel steering, on asfalt, ice or gravel, doenst matter. Thats what makes a driver really good. Ekström has proven just that, he can drive anything, FWD or 4WD ST cars, RWD DTM cars, 4WD rally cars on snow, doenst matter, he has won it all.

[juicy sushi]

i think the cars should have their original drivetrains. however, if they have awd models, they could be converted to rwd. but more power is definitely needed. how about 2 litre turbos, diesel and non-diesel?...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Obviously 9 at this very moment, according to FIRE, which is 5-6 more then whats in WTCC atm. I dont think the manufactueres care if they have to convert form FWD to RWD in marketing point of view; I really dont, as I said, it will give a more sporty image, if anything.

Wait. I read on dtm.com forum 9 manufacturers are in talks about the new tech rules. A) I don't know if it's true 9 manufacturers are involved. And if these manufacturers are creating the new tech rules it's not certain they join WTCC. Late 90s BMW was involved in the "new" DTM but never joined the DTM. B) I don't know if these manufacturers agree with change to RWD.