F1-1967 Today

[f1-67]

gt917 - thanks for the message - you have rightly pointed out that for people like me / us ? its about engineering not about who runs what or where or why or any other political ##ite , what i have done with the f1-67 was because i wanted to and could , there are not many people in the world anymore who are proper hands on engineers who can create something from nothing and i can proudly stand up and say ' i did that ' like it or lump it -

- if you like it you can have one , if there are 10 others then we have the beginnings of a race series ( many organising clubs will let you buy grids at the moment for one simple reason ££££££££££££££££££££ ) if not then fine - ill still be having fun and pretending to be a badly off form john surtees for a long time yet -

as for the donington one make cars , theres one on display in the museum , personally i would have had it taken out and shot on aesthetic grounds alone . it is not really something that could ever be aproximated to a maserati 250 f , they looked simply awful , had quite a few reliability and driveability issues and not surprisingly died a rapid death , obviously if they had a grid of reliable 1967 looking v8 engined single seaters to use things could have been so much better

now Maserati 250 f , wasnt that the next car on my list for 'modern improvement ' ?? anyone interested ?? ( sorry had to drop that in just to push mr rustons blood pressure up again ) - but i am serious though -

ps dont let him get 2 u gt917 - as long as the purists push the bounds of affordabaility with their real toys it just makes ours look better value .

[john ruston]

That is a more than reasonable position and as long as your and your customers toys do not get mixed up with the Historic Cars now racing no problems.(although some of the cars now racing are less historic than some of these look alike)
Of course you can buy a grid.

Blood pressure will not move as its only a pastime and a game for most of us and I am not trying to wind you up just taking a totally different position and I hope your toys do grow in value. As an aside I sold my B8 as I think long term the problems of the continuation cars ,firstly built in the 80's ,and those being built now will reduce the invested value of the cars.Two cars with same chassis no etc.I accept cars should only be bought because you enjoy them but also its good to think that you can cover the buying cost when you sell.The cost of running is hobby cost.

I will retire from this one and wish you all the best .

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by john ruston

That is a more than reasonable position and as long as your and your customers toys do not get mixed up with the Historic Cars now racing no problems.(although some of the cars now racing are less historic than some of these look alike)
Of course you can buy a grid.

Isn't there a very expensive fake Jaguar out there in historics? What annoys me are the people who have a car that's not genuine and like to think they are.
Graham and F1-67 have never once said there cars should run with historics or pretended they are the real thing but they are excellent examples of engineering and should be encouraged not bemoaned at every turn by some of the elitists out there just because they run expensive toys.

[rogerwills]

Just as a matter of interest, what sort of money are you looking to charge for such a car?

[terence]

Quite right Tim,as someone who hates the idea of replacing bodyshells with new,as long as no one trys to pass off a recreation as the real thing,then why not.I have it on very good authority that the F1 67s are very nicely built/engineered,and they will also accommodate drivers who have "put on a bit of weight" over the years.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Isn't there a very expensive fake Jaguar out there in historics? What annoys me are the people who have a car that's not genuine and like to think they are.

Agreed; worse still when they actually try to pass them off as original to others.

Originally Posted by falcemob

Graham and F1-67 have never once said there cars should run with historics or pretended they are the real thing but they are excellent examples of engineering and should be encouraged not bemoaned at every turn by some of the elitists out there just because they run expensive toys.

I suppose that there is an inevitability about all this given that the thread (not of F1-67's making) was posted in this forum though. The concern of some, including me, and I don't own a racing stable or indeed any racing car, unfortunately, is that some of these cars might; we have already seen that happen with the participation of continuation cars. However, the subject has been given a good airing, and as they say, any publicity is good publicity. I, too, wish good luck to this venture.

Originally Posted by john ruston

.... its only a pastime and a game for most of us

Exactly, and outside of some of the highly commercial modern high profile series, this is surely all it should be, whether you race genuine historics or cars that attempt to recall past periods of racing at a fraction of the cost of the originals.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

Just as a matter of interest, what sort of money are you looking to charge for such a car?

Roger, discussed on the first couple of pages. £42k plus VAT, I believe.

[rogerwills]

Sorry, wasn't paying attention!

So therefore not actually a lot different to the bottom end of the F5000 market. And a bit more than a period F3 car. Or 2-3 FF cars.

I guess each to their own, but for that money I'd rather have a historic car.

[f1-67]

each to his own - absolutely - you can make the numbers work either way

you could have 2 F1-67 for a top flight f 5000 car or perhaps 20 + as opposed to an original 1967 with major provenance - it really doesnt matter how you look at the 'value' aspect as you can compare up or down - ( the price is simply areflection of the quality of parts used )

[Cuddly Ken]

I am a lover of cars of this period. Having owned and raced A Westfield 11 for 18 years. Approx 160 race meetings several championships in kit cars, Top Hat. Jaguar Centurion challenge, SRGT, plus races in other series, there is now way I could afford to buy and run a genuine lotus 11 The car looked and felt like the real thing!! I also ran an Auriga Lotus 23 for two years this car is now in the states. Current car is a Mamba 23 Lotus 23 but great fun. The Honda is a really fantastic car to drive true to the Era
We have done two test sessions at Mallory with no pervious running OK it’s a 5.3 V8 not v 3ltr V 12 as in the original car, we ran the full three sessions on both days with no problems. The car is over engineered extremely strong chassis and unstressed engine. This should make it very reliable easy to maintain, and cost effective to run.
The F1-67 looks good feels right, and would make a fantastic track day or racecar. Different nose cones are available and alternate body shapes so could possibly make an interesting race series, all on the same engine and chassis but several different models if there was enough interest.
I have added a couple pics of my cars, out of interest!
Ken Culverwell

[gt917]

Ken,

as always, your insight and knowledge go without question, and it is obvous to all that the standards that F1-67 have put into this race car are superb.

Sadly though, as we have seen here, there will always be the damming and dissaproving comments. I too have had exactly the same with the GT40 and 917 over many years, the one great consolation being that we shall be able to enjoy our labours and encourage others to love all aspects of "period" looking, sounding and handling racing cars for a fraction of the cost and long after many of the originals have been mothballed.

I adore historic Sports Racing and GT cars but i simply cannot ever hope to purchase an original 40 or 917, so as i am only here once i have to build up my own, just like people will for this superb F1-67.

It is the designers and engineers that create the history.I hope that F1-67s thrive, but i doubt Mr Ruston will purchase one.

GT

[terence]

gt917, I for one thoroughly dissaprove of "Continuation" cars being allowed to run with original cars.However,if someone wants to build a recreation and proudly announces that is exactly what they have built,I have no proplem with that at all.Replicas go back a long way what with the Lambo Countach [an old friend was responsible for the first of these] GTD 40s etc etc.There is a market for these cars,and some I have driven are much more user friendly than the original item it has to be said.Anyone with the skill's to go into a venture such as this should be encouraged to carry on and hopefully,be successfull in the venture,I wish all such people the very best of luck especialy because ,at this present time,it is refreshing to see there are some who are not giving in to the doom and gloom boy's!

[grantp]

I can see some attraction for the F1-67 experience exactly as outlined in the concept philosophy. How it may or may not become related to 'Historic' racing is another matter.

However looking around the technology of the modern 'one chassis' series for open wheelers I do wonder what classic and historic racing will look like in 10 or 20 years from now. Pretty much one engine as well.

F1 cars must be a dead end in anything like their original form during the last 10 years. Maybe 20 years if one is not somewhat flexible.

I went to the BTCC meeting at Donington last weekend and the only variety on the grids, other than the BTCC Cars, was in the colour schemes. The public will be used to this by now and those just coming through their first racing awakening will accept it as the norm. Continuation one make series presumably will be what people will expect. Perhaps the chassis will live on forever and at some point be converted to battery power?

The question of originality is, of course, another discussion altogether ...

[gt917]

OK then,

How do we stand regarding the hundreds of new build "historic" cars that are built up to comply to racing regulations such as MGB, TRs, etc, etc, etc .................. ???

Many, if not all the build components are new and not even made by the original manufacturers for most of these "also continuation" cars.

Many of our recreations have a greater race history and for a lot longer !!!!!!!!! and do contain many original parts in looks or substance.

We all know that racing cars are a continual development process and wear and tear inevitably means replacing a lot of things, including chassis and bodyshells ..... and chassis plates !!

GT

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Cuddly Ken

I am a lover of cars of this period. Having owned and raced A Westfield 11 for 18 years. Approx 160 race meetings several championships in kit cars, Top Hat. Jaguar Centurion challenge, SRGT, plus races in other series, there is now way I could afford to buy and run a genuine lotus 11 The car looked and felt like the real thing!! I also ran an Auriga Lotus 23 for two years this car is now in the states. Current car is a Mamba 23 Lotus 23 but great fun. The Honda is a really fantastic car to drive true to the Era
We have done two test sessions at Mallory with no pervious running OK it’s a 5.3 V8 not v 3ltr V 12 as in the original car, we ran the full three sessions on both days with no problems. The car is over engineered extremely strong chassis and unstressed engine. This should make it very reliable easy to maintain, and cost effective to run.
The F1-67 looks good feels right, and would make a fantastic track day or racecar. Different nose cones are available and alternate body shapes so could possibly make an interesting race series, all on the same engine and chassis but several different models if there was enough interest.
I have added a couple pics of my cars, out of interest!
Ken Culverwell

Here we go, Soichiro may be spinning in his grave ! !
Creeping towards confusion even before one is sold.
why are you calling it a Honda, does the builder have the rights to that name?

[PTRACER]

Originally Posted by grantp

However looking around the technology of the modern 'one chassis' series for open wheelers I do wonder what classic and historic racing will look like in 10 or 20 years from now. Pretty much one engine as well.

Historic racing will be dead in 20 years time, unless people continue to run cars from the 1970s/1980s and earlier. Modern cars have so much technology built into them, they need laptops to start the engines and are run by onboard computers and the average joe who's happy working on his nuts 'n' bolts 1970s car will no longer be able to make do with just a socket and spanner set.

[gt917]

As far as i can see F1-67 does not call it a Honda and Ken i think was only comparing its similarity to one. A slip of the tongue on his part i think.

I agree PTRacer, no computers, laptops, etc, etc for me either.

GT

[terence]

Originally Posted by gt917

OK then,

How do we stand regarding the hundreds of new build "historic" cars that are built up to comply to racing regulations such as MGB, TRs, etc, etc, etc .................. ???

Many, if not all the build components are new and not even made by the original manufacturers for most of these "also continuation" cars.

Many of our recreations have a greater race history and for a lot longer !!!!!!!!! and do contain many original parts in looks or substance.

We all know that racing cars are a continual development process and wear and tear inevitably means replacing a lot of things, including chassis and bodyshells ..... and chassis plates !!

GT

You now bring the subject full circle to a thread started ages ago.As I have already stated,I think that once a bodyshell has been replaced with a new version and just about everything else for that matter,then you can forget any of the previous "history",thats all been tipped into a skip and has gone forever.The car may carry the number plate,but it IS not "The "car it pretends to be.
When you say that "Many of our creations----------------------contain many original parts",does that mean that your 917 has an original engine/transmission etc?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

When you say that "Many of our creations----------------------contain many original parts",does that mean that your 917 has an original engine/transmission etc?

Ew ew ew, my car has an engine out of a Lister Jaguar so it must be historic then.

[terence]

Perhaps your's is the factory F/G version they built Tim?
Bottom line for me and many others is that recreations have no place in so called "historic racing".

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Perhaps your's is the factory F/G version they built Tim?
Bottom line for me and many others is that recreations have no place in so called "historic racing".

Bottom line is I don't ever recall saying they did.

[terence]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Bottom line is I don't ever recall saying they did.

No,Sorry Tim,that was just a generalisation of my sentiments toward Continuation type cars.

[Tim Falce]

Anyhoo, back to the original subject, it's a lovely piece of engineering, if not grossly over engineered and I don't see how it can come in at 650kg, the chassis looks like it weighs that. The problem I see is there would be nowhere to race it, it wouldn't even fit into the SRGTC series that I used to race in so it would end up a very expensive track day car.

As for Graham's GT40 and 917 replicas, they are just magnificent examples of engineering and craftsmanship. The 917 especially so as I know he started with a pile of mismade pap and turned it into an artwork but he has never once to my knowledge led anyone on to believe it is the genuine article.

I really suppose this thread should have not been started in historics anyway.

[terence]

Yes,quite.

[gt917]

Tim,

Cheque is in the post. Thankyou.

Oh, how i wish i was wealthy and had an original car. Terence, i do agree with you, but i just wanted to support engineers and similar skilled craftsmen. F1-67 needs praise, and after all it was not he who posted the original message.

Graham.

PS. Tim, why are you not SR&GTing anymore ??