Mixed Engines for 2017 ??? (Merged x2)

[NaBUru38]

Great news! Cool to see and hear four-cylinder turbos versis straight-6s and V8s.

With some equalization, it will work.

[peckstar]

I havent rerad anything that suggest 4pot turbo, V6 Turbo & V8's

anyone got a source.

the original post asked it as a question not as a fact.

Highly doubtful that is what we will get as we have a parity series not a free for all

for those that want production cars, go and watch the current series,

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Highly doubtful that is what we will get as we have a parity series not a free for all

You can have a parity series with 'free for all' engine regulations

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If there are multiple engine configurations, it should be legislated that they come from one source for a brand

So.. If Holden wants to run a 1.6L turbo in its Insignia, then its contracted teams in 888, Tekno, WP & BJR should take their engines from Holden Motorsport, who sources them from KRE or Cragsted or similar...

Consistent quality, easier to paritise the single spec for the brand..

Good suggestion GT, I have long held the view and it also was a consideration of our V8ST design that we would eventually move to a 2 liter high horsepower/turbo charged 4 cylinder hybrid engine, the only way to do that economically, at least IMO was to follow the BTCC example of developing a no name category power unit, such as the BTCC did, that became the bench mark for all other aspiring engine manufactures that want to say "hand on heart" that their engine carries their DNA ..Blah Blah.

A manufacture could then agree that they will run the spec Category engine for up to, say 1 year, before they develop and introduce their own equivalent engine that does not, and can not exceed the Category engine.

The MGU-H only, regenerative system, including the Turbo, however, needs to be a totally control spec.
This is the key to parity in my opinion because as Merc's F1 customers have learnt that you might have exactly the same engine but the MGU-H and or K [Kinetic energy braking] regenerative system are delivered to most customers, except Williams, with only one calibration.

Its a do-able project, and if it was committed to as the way forward and each team had to buy a minimum of two Category spec engines for the first season it could be built for under A$50K, as you are talking a minimum of 50 one make engines.

Just my two bob's worth but some 5 years of thinking behind the idea.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

You can have a parity series with 'free for all' engine regulations

No you cant. it becomes too political, people always complaing

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Matt, the manufacturing landscape is changing down here with the departure of Ford and holden in the not too distant future, and if the series is to have any security then changes will most likely have to be made.

You can change the size and shape of the cars, just keep the current engine regs.

Plenty of series across the globe run the big displacement motor, even though hardly anyone buys the street car with the big motor.

I don't know where I'm going with this tbh, but I'd REALLY like to see the current setup for powerplants retained.


basically, just make them the smaller cars they sell loads of, and run them as this


just find a way to make the main intake not as awkward looking

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by peckstar

No you cant. it becomes too political, people always complaing

Peckstar, I cant believe I am saying this but for once I agree with you, although I think the word you meant to type was COMPLAINING.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Matt

You can change the size and shape of the cars, just keep the current engine regs.

Plenty of series across the globe run the big displacement motor, even though hardly anyone buys the street car with the big motor.

I don't know where I'm going with this tbh, but I'd REALLY like to see the current setup for powerplants retained.

Australian racing has a history of the engine regs matching closely enough with what the road cars offer right back to 1960.

It was only 2013 when the cars properly started drifting from this philosophy with a V8-engined Nissan Altima, and then a V8-engined Volvo S60.

The Holden Commodore's and Ford Falcon's run since 1993, while racing with engines that were purpose built, were still V8 motors like sold in the road cars.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Matt

You can change the size and shape of the cars, just keep the current engine regs.

Plenty of series across the globe run the big displacement motor, even though hardly anyone buys the street car with the big motor.

I don't know where I'm going with this tbh, but I'd REALLY like to see the current setup for powerplants retained.


basically, just make them the smaller cars they sell loads of, and run them as this


just find a way to make the main intake not as awkward looking

It would be nice, but I think after 2016 they will be struggling to find enough manufacturers to compete in the series under the current regs.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Matt

em the smaller cars they sell loads of, and run them as this


just find a way to make the main intake not as awkward looking

Problem solved

[Nicholosophy]

Unlike many, I really don't care about the size of the engine. I want to see good, close racing.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Nicholosophy

Unlike many, I really don't care about the size of the engine. I want to see good, close racing.

Agreed, and if the future of our sport looks like those MARC Focus, then I am in for the long haul. They give me a chubby.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Good suggestion GT, I have long held the view and it also was a consideration of our V8ST design that we would eventually move to a 2 liter high horsepower/turbo charged 4 cylinder hybrid engine, the only way to do that economically, at least IMO was to follow the BTCC example of developing a no name category power unit, such as the BTCC did, that became the bench mark for all other aspiring engine manufactures that want to say "hand on heart" that their engine carries their DNA ..Blah Blah.

A manufacture could then agree that they will run the spec Category engine for up to, say 1 year, before they develop and introduce their own equivalent engine that does not, and can not exceed the Category engine.

The MGU-H only, regenerative system, including the Turbo, however, needs to be a totally control spec.
This is the key to parity in my opinion because as Merc's F1 customers have learnt that you might have exactly the same engine but the MGU-H and or K [Kinetic energy braking] regenerative system are delivered to most customers, except Williams, with only one calibration.

Its a do-able project, and if it was committed to as the way forward and each team had to buy a minimum of two Category spec engines for the first season it could be built for under A$50K, as you are talking a minimum of 50 one make engines.

Just my two bob's worth but some 5 years of thinking behind the idea.

My most recent research tells me 650 BHP and 550 ftlb's of "acceleration" is easily achievable with a two liter petrol hybrid that would run up to 3,000 k's between re-builds. This would make hybrid powered 2 liter 4 cylinder cars even faster than the current cars, plus allow more areo.

Most people that actually know me, would agree I am a huge V8 fan, love the sound, love everything about a high revving V8, such as Nascar use, and we used in TransAm for many years.

However, its inevitable that V8SC and its increased dependance on manufactures money has to go small capacity hybrids, as when V8SC finally bite the bullet and do that, a lot more manufactures will jump on board because its relevant.

What is not relevant is a V6 hybrid, to expensive and not the way the motor industry is going, so it has to be a 4 cylinder, love them or hate them. Only my opinion mind.

[Nicholosophy]

The champion is still awarded the Australian Touring Car Championship from memory. It would make no sense to drive around cars that have no relevence to today's touring cars. (As much as the current cars have little relevence)

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Agreed, and if the future of our sport looks like those MARC Focus, then I am in for the long haul. They give me a chubby.

yessir.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Nicholosophy

The champion is still awarded the Australian Touring Car Championship from memory. It would make no sense to drive around cars that have no relevence to today's touring cars. (As much as the current cars have little relevence)

You mean like those that contest the BTCC, WTCC, and DTM that have SO much relevance to the street cars.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Nicholosophy

The champion is still awarded the Australian Touring Car Championship from memory. It would make no sense to drive around cars that have no relevence to today's touring cars. (As much as the current cars have little relevence)

Australian Touring Car, not Australian Production Car. big difference

Also it is no longer called that. a name change has occurred although a name change can happen again

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Matt

You mean like those that contest the BTCC, WTCC, and DTM that have SO much relevance to the street cars.

To be fair, BTCC and WTCC cars are still based on a production bodyshell.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Also it is no longer called that. a name change has occurred although a name change can happen again

The V8Supercar Championship winner is still awarded the ATCC.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

The V8Supercar Championship winner is still awarded the ATCC.

I dont think thats correct anymore

the ATCC has had a name change

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I dont think thats correct anymore

the ATCC has had a name change

It's very correct.

V8Supercars call the series the "V8Supercar Championship" having dropped the ATCC name after 1998.

CAMS themselves still award the winning driver the ATCC.

[EfiOz]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If there are multiple engine configurations, it should be legislated that they come from one source for a brand

So.. If Holden wants to run a 1.6L turbo in its Insignia, then its contracted teams in 888, Tekno, WP & BJR should take their engines from Holden Motorsport, who sources them from KRE or Cragsted or similar...

Consistent quality, easier to paritise the single spec for the brand..

Socialist.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Good suggestion GT, I have long held the view and it also was a consideration of our V8ST design that we would eventually move to a 2 liter high horsepower/turbo charged 4 cylinder hybrid engine, the only way to do that economically, at least IMO was to follow the BTCC example of developing a no name category power unit, such as the BTCC did, that became the bench mark for all other aspiring engine manufactures that want to say "hand on heart" that their engine carries their DNA ..Blah Blah.

There is a lot to learn in the BTCC, about how not to do things, especially all the fiddling with turbo boost.

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

My most recent research tells me 650 BHP and 550 ftlb's of "acceleration" is easily achievable with a two liter petrol hybrid that would run up to 3,000 k's between re-builds. This would make hybrid powered 2 liter 4 cylinder cars even faster than the current cars, plus allow more areo.

Most people that actually know me, would agree I am a huge V8 fan, love the sound, love everything about a high revving V8, such as Nascar use, and we used in TransAm for many years.

However, its inevitable that V8SC and its increased dependance on manufactures money has to go small capacity hybrids, as when V8SC finally bite the bullet and do that, a lot more manufactures will jump on board because its relevant.

What is not relevant is a V6 hybrid, to expensive and not the way the motor industry is going, so it has to be a 4 cylinder, love them or hate them. Only my opinion mind.

Most of the manufacturers have V6 turbo race engines in Indycar, IMSA etc...

Audi, BMW and Merc have road car V8 turbos

If they switch to a new engine formula, the manufacturers have to pick the extra cost, otherwise there is huge risk to the series.

F1 and WEC is a example of how to get all this wrong.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by EfiOz

Socialist.

Yes, probably In this case anyway

The manufacturer involvement could then become the supply of engines to teams for free or at cost... or maybe paid to take them...

What I wouldnt like to see is the BTCC solution, where any old chassis can rock up with a bespoke 'category' engine... that dilutes the brand of the vehicle in my mind, makes it impossible to get a carmaker to get behind a race car with their chassis, and a Toyota (or Chev) engine aboard..

[mikuni]

I used to love WTCC under the S2000 specs. Now, with the turbo 1.6l engines they are quiet and quite frankly, boring. The days of fire breathing, big horsepower turbo engines are gone. They may make big horsepower from small engines, but fire breathing and great sounding they will not be.

The days of Super Touring were special to me, and I remember them fondly. But even with a fantastic formula like this it still failed to impress the majority of the Australasian viewing public. This must be remembered, because the key to the future is the fans. Not manufacturers, not the teams, nothing else if no one is watching it.