the going rate

[ss_collins]

So whats the going rate out there - I know what some mags pay for pic usage - but I think its unfair for me to say others rates. I pay around $40 (US) per image and whilst not huge we pay promptly (and the one cock up that has occured happened to a tenths member - sorry it'll get sorted!) and I think fairly.

But what do you lot think is a fair rate of pay for a magazine and also for a book?

[BertMk2]

It depends on usage - if it's a small image on a news item then that's not worth as much as a half page of spectaluar action shot. It's also worth noting that amateurs (ie those taking pics from the spectator areas) can't actually 'sell' their images from most circuits (legally).

Books are a different area again - some photos are commisioned specifically for a book (eg your work with Gavin for the Autodrome book) whilst others are included in a book because they're part of the historical record of an event. How much they're worth can also be dependent on their historical importance - if it's the only known image of a certain driver/car/event then it'll carry a premium whereas other subjects may be ten a penny.

So the simple answer is it depends

[badgerbaiter]

like everything else that has a price tag its about supply and demand

seems everyone is trying to break into the 'selling motorsport photos' business and who can blame them? its an enjoyable job and getting paid is a bonus.
if the photos required are ones that most photographers could supply then there is a lot of supply and little demand. therefore the prices are rock bottom (and even free in some cases).
if its a photo that no one else took and all the mags want it (the verstappen mechanic through the flames is the most famous one) then supply is small and demand is high so therefore so is the price.

speaking as someone who deals in buying and selling i'd say the old saying of 'its value is what someone will pay for it' works very well.

[badgerbaiter]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

It's also worth noting that amateurs (ie those taking pics from the spectator areas) can't actually 'sell' their images from most circuits (legally).

in some cases thats also the same for the ones with photo media passes

[Kelvin]

I was appoached recently by a compny in USA to use an image I took many years ago at Santa Pod raceway. Not sure, but as I understand it is to be used on some trade stand. I asked for $200 They areed to this and asked for 5 more images. Sadly they wont pay $200 for each image, as this exceeds thir budget. We have agreed on $800, which I am very pleased with, which is just over £400.

Kelvin

[zac510]

ss_collins, do you go to the public when you can't get the photo you want from the stock library?
I imagine getting action photos (or a scoop) would be more important for a news magazine but I know yours isn't.

[ss_collins]

perhaps not the public but yes to other snappers

[zac510]

Yeah by public I just meant somebody not on your books already!

[PaulSands]

The problem is that theres doesnt appear to be a "going rate" as such. Publications like Autosport have set rates for images as do many of the local daily newspapers but many of the smaller papers virtually fit if they look like theyre going to have to pay for an image.
Wit the advent of cheaply available digital equipment it gets harder on harder to sell at a good rate. I was approached about images to use on a website early last year and decided I'd check out the NUJ recommended rates...I nearly died when I saw the prices. I ended up quoting 50% of those rates and I never heard a peep from that prospective client again whereas others wher I have applied my own dicretion to proved to be successful.
I havent done motorsport since May last year but my experience since of equestrian photography is that yes people can grab a digital camera and get what looks like a half decent shot but 99 times out of 100 they cant get a good shot let alone a great shot..did I veer off topic there???

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

and the one cock up that has occured happened to a tenths member - sorry it'll get sorted!

Soon I hope

[ss_collins]

I'd suggest the NUJ rates are wildly optimistic and if you quote anything near that you'll lose (my) business.

[PaulSands]

A conclusion I'd reached almost immediately

[gi_gav]

The NUJ rates are based on commercial photography, where there is still some semblance of a structure to the industry, and the requirements for photographers (in terms of equipment, experience, time etc.) are usually much higher than in our world.

Last year I had a major US chemicals group ask to buy all rights to one photo - given that it would have involved usage worldwide in prominent marketing I quoted a reasonable commercial rate (higher than motorsport usually sees). Surprisingly enough, I didn't hear back from them and I'm aware that they were quoted regular motorsport rates from other photographers who presumably didn't know or didn't care about its actual usage.

In cases like this, I think motorsport photographers can be just a little naive sometimes...

As for mags (Racecar included, as Sam well knows) my gripe is when the same rate is paid for a 1.5" shot as it is for a full-page or even a cover.

That's all a very long-winded way of saying that usage should determine the fee!

[MikeHoyer]

I've read a LOT about charging x amount for such a usage, don't under-sell yourself etc. Take into account equipment cost, how much it cost to get to the location, time taken, etc. etc. etc.

That's fine in theory, but as far as many clients are concerned it took a fraction of a second to take the photo, so it's not worth much if anything at all. Nevermind your expensive equipment, your time taken etc.

I can think of at least two situations where I've given what I think is a decent price, and had it turned down.

Situation 1: A manufacturer contacted me regarding a car that they were testing. It was being built for the track day market mainly, and they wanted some advertising shots of this car on track, as well as some "artistic" static shots. Basically a full days work to ensure that everything was covered. The shots would then be used in publications that would appeal to the type of person who might hire or buy the car, essentially someone with a lot of money!
They asked me how much I wanted. I quoted a pretty low price, based on another job I'd done. We made an agreement, then a few minutes later they phoned me back to say they didn't want to spend any more money on advertising, thanks very much, but I'm sure we can find someone who'll do it for free....

Situation 2: Someone asked me about some shots to use as display panels at an exhibition. I found a cost using Fotoquote, generally considered to be the standard tool for that sort of thing. I quoted them the lower amount, and again got the "we'd hope it would be free" line.

So it can be very difficult dealing with people regarding money. Of course there are others who have a better idea of what they are doing, and offer a fair price and are professional (plus pay quickly!)

[PaulSands]

You have just put your finger on the main reason I dont do motorsport at the moment.
At least now I can say "its my job how much work do you do for free" if confronted by that plus if confronted by the argument its a split second thing I also point out that its travelling, its content review its image editing and if you think its so easy you do it cos while its not the hardest job in the world if you jst hand your camera over to somebody and say get a good shot 90% of the time its cr*p and at best its a snapshot. Again whereas I cant be too fussy about the price I can be fussy enough

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by PaulSands

I also point out that its travelling, its content review its image editing

I try to explain that as well, but most people don't seem to get it. Now my standard reply to drivers/teams who expect stuff for free is along the lines of "fine, you can have it for nothing, but at the next race I'll expect you to give me a drive for free". After all, driving a car isn't that hard either, I do it every day

[andy_b]

so, do you get publications to ever pay up front.

a little bit off-topic....

I've now had my third team (one of the others, the guy is now in jail - so no chance of getting money out of them) in as many years, who haven't paid their invoice for design work.

Normally, I do a quote, get agreement and then work. Then I tend to wait and wait and wait.... Do you have problems getting paid? I only have problems with racing teams and almost at the point where I'm going to stop doing it.

I'm going to start invoicing every couple of weeks on projects now with 30 days policy. If project continues after those 30 days, my pen goes down until I do get paid.

On the subject of non-payment. If someone hasn't paid their invoice...then I assume you can tell them to stop using the image/design as you still own the copyright for the image

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by MikeHoyer

Situation 1: A manufacturer contacted me regarding a car that they were testing. It was being built for the track day market mainly, and they wanted some advertising shots of this car on track, as well as some "artistic" static shots. Basically a full days work to ensure that everything was covered. The shots would then be used in publications that would appeal to the type of person who might hire or buy the car, essentially someone with a lot of money!
They asked me how much I wanted. I quoted a pretty low price, based on another job I'd done. We made an agreement, then a few minutes later they phoned me back to say they didn't want to spend any more money on advertising, thanks very much, but I'm sure we can find someone who'll do it for free....

Situation 2: Someone asked me about some shots to use as display panels at an exhibition. I found a cost using Fotoquote, generally considered to be the standard tool for that sort of thing. I quoted them the lower amount, and again got the "we'd hope it would be free" line.

I get that a lot. They expect a livery design, which say takes 10-15 hours and complain if the quote is over 100 quid I've even had pretty big teams say that...and I know what some other design and liveries charge and I know I'm great value

you can't win

[redshoes]

This thread, especially Gavin, Mike and Paul's comments, should be required reading for any budding photographer. Every so often we see people saying they want to become a motorsports photographer and asking how best to get into the business. They seem to think that standing trackside with a camera is a glamorous profession.

What they forget is the wet Thursday test days at Pembrey and the fact that it's no as well paid as they think.

[James North]

Yes. 90% of those tend to come from people whos simply want to get in front of the fence to get closer to the action.

They have little or no idea behind it in all honesty. I myself am vastly in experienced and very much wet behind the ears compared to the established photographers here.

I so much want to make motorsport photography my profession, but I have to accept that to make it as a freelance, is very very unlikey. As it stands I have no choice but to hold down a day job/career away from photography, simply because I need to earn my living. And that makes becoming a professional photographer so much harder because I can't commit nearly as much time to photography as I want and need to in order to make it work properly.

I'm aboslutely not going to give up on it though, I'm still going to pester the agents etc.

[MikeHoyer]

Of course a lot of these people who want to get trackside aren't too bothered about whether they get paid or not. So long as they get a clear shot, and maybe a few quid for a photo they're happy. Of course to do it properly, taking the photos is just the beginning, there's then the hours of editing, and like redshoes says the test days etc. to consider.

[Happy Snapper]

Originally Posted by redshoes

What they forget is the wet Thursday test days at Pembrey and the fact that it's no as well paid as they think.

If you get paid! As Mike says there are too many people willing to give away work.

Ok just out of interest lets name (and you can all join in) anyone who makes the SOLE living from Motorsport photography? For this discussion we will exclude anyone who has any other job or lives at home with mum and dad!

I’ll start

Keith Sutton?
Jacob Ebray?
Eric Metcalf?

[rdjones]

I had an interesting e-mail last night from a guy asking for tips on breaking into the world of motorsport photography. I will quote part of the e-mail

i have been a photographer for a little over 8 years now and really pulling my hair out trying to break into motorsport , i have had reasonable success with aviation where i have had my work published worldwide and built up a good reputation in that field .

I think he is asking the worng person, I am still trying to get my foot in the door and it's not through the lack of trying. As some people know I have had one or two oppertuties which have been good fun. But I have come to the conclusion that I will be stuck in the "cheap seat's" and if these oppertuties arise again then so be it.

[MikeHoyer]

Originally Posted by Happy Snapper

Ok just out of interest lets name (and you can all join in) anyone who makes the SOLE living from Motorsport photography? For this discussion we will exclude anyone who has any other job or lives at home with mum and dad!

Do the people who work for these people/agencies count?

[Snapperjack]

Originally Posted by Happy Snapper

Ok just out of interest lets name (and you can all join in) anyone who makes the SOLE living from Motorsport photography? For this discussion we will exclude anyone who has any other job or lives at home with mum and dad!

I’ll start

Keith Sutton?
Jacob Ebray?
Eric Metcalf?

Worldwide?