Racetracks in NSW ???

[peckstar]

doesnt this just back up what some people have been saying for a while. people in NSW (Sydney espeacially) just are not interested in motorsport (at least the circuit variety)

here is my reasoning,
A lack of tracks
b lack of spectators when we do go to those tracks
c no v8 teams are based there so the top motorsport people from a car building are interstate based
d very few ATCC champions have been from sydne (any?)

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

New Zealand has a race circuit for every 250,000 odd people.......I like the NZ model!

Ummmm, let's see:

Teretonga
Levels
Ruapuna
Manfeild
Taupo
Pukekohe
Soon-to-be Hampton Downs

Divided by 4 million people makes around 571,000 people per race track....

....and it doesn't drop by much if we count in the Hamilton Supercar street circuit, and even the old Wellington street circuit if we have to

[Peddler]

Originally Posted by peckstar

doesnt this just back up what some people have been saying for a while. people in NSW (Sydney espeacially) just are not interested in motorsport (at least the circuit variety)

here is my reasoning,
A lack of tracks
b lack of spectators when we do go to those tracks
c no v8 teams are based there so the top motorsport people from a car building are interstate based
d very few ATCC champions have been from sydne (any?)

Who is saying that NSW poeple are not into motorsport??? Why is it that for poeple to compare all motorsport, all they think about is the freaking V8Supertaxie Circus???

Seriously dude, you are not providing any justice to your comments becuase the Australian motorsport scene is a hell of a lot more, than the boring as bat**** AVESCO circus!

You ring any of the current tracks in NSW and find out what dates are available for booking for 2008. They are near booked out! and if they had more dates available to them, they would be booked out as well. Also while you are at it... start asking questions about 2009 and you will be very suprised at your findings.

Sorry for getting G'd up about this, but i have been thinking about this a lot and i really think that NSW folk are getting the short end of the stick in this deal. If we had two more FIA spec full lengh circuits within the Sydney basin or within a reasonable distance from the CBD fringes... they also would be as busy as the current tracks.

Anyone got $10mill for me ?

[MPA]

It's not just the lack of spectators in NSW.

Try finding enough people to officiate.

Drive Bathurst next month......they are willing to fly, house, water and feed interstate marshals willing to attend.

In fact, after poaching the Armstrong 500 from Phillip Island over 40 years ago the organisers at Bathurst still cant find enough locals to man the place for the biggest race of the year.

I guess Keating had it right when he said....If you're not living in Sydney, you're camping out......

And I guess the drive west to Bathurst is too much....my goodness, can you still hear the shock jocks Jones and Laws on the radio that far away?

The poor darlings.......perhaps a new track would be wasted on them......

[MRJUCY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

d very few ATCC champions have been from sydne (any?)

Yeah a couple I think.

Ian Geoghegan 5
Glenn Seton 2*
Colin Bond 1
David McKay 1
Mark Skaife 5*(Central Coast close enough)

A few other Bathurst (including multiple) winners & a 3 time Formula 1 world champion too but you only mentioned ATCC.

*Including V8 Supercar championships. Peter Doulman won the 2 Litre Championship too.

[Alan52]

Since Adelaide International was built in 1969 there has only been 1 road racing circuit in Australia built with private money-Wakefield Park and that was Paul Samuels dream rather than a business proposition.Similarly all national football and international cricket grounds that have had major upgrades have had these funded either directly or indirectly (via trusts) by the taxpayer.Although running a race circuit can be a profitable business if you have a plan that can generate a profit that doesn't rely on race meetings once you take the capital costs into account it is impossible to make money(how much does Westpac still own of the Thunderdome?).The only way a new circuit is going to get built is with government funding.The NSW government already has a better record in this regard than any other state-they built Eastern Creek and paid for a large part of the Bathurst upgrade.I cannot imagine them funding another circuit when the 98% of the population that couldn't care less about motor racing would see that there are already existing venues.

[mountainstar]

As I recall from ARDC newsletters the V8 Supercar meeting lost money while the Muscle Car Masters did very well.

Should concern some people.

[NewsStalker]

But Eastern Creek was built with an International Race in mind (and not even cars!) whilst Bathurst has that 'special aura' about it so you can't really say they have a 'good record'. Would they have built Eastern Creek if they had known the bikes would finally go to Phillip Island?

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

It is of course correct.Interesting point-- New Zealand has a race circuit for every 250,000 odd people, so does Tasmania , South Australia about 500,
Queenland about 1,000,000 as does Victoria. NSW is what -soon to be 1 track per 2,500,000 . I like the NZ model!

While the numbers might not be exactly spot on, this proves the point very well.

Originally Posted by peckstar

doesnt this just back up what some people have been saying for a while. people in NSW (Sydney espeacially) just are not interested in motorsport (at least the circuit variety)

here is my reasoning,
A lack of tracks
b lack of spectators when we do go to those tracks
c no v8 teams are based there so the top motorsport people from a car building are interstate based
d very few ATCC champions have been from sydne (any?)

And this proves nothing whatsoever. Your reasoning lacks logic. How can a lack of circuits "back up" the myth that NSW/Sydney people are not interested in motorsport? Nonsense.

Have you actually been to Eastern Creek? It doesn't get crowds because it is a very poor venue - its even situated right on top of a rubbish dump - as if the lack of shade and facilities wasn't bad enough you have to put up with the sweet smell of rotting garbage all day.

And Oran Park, it does get crowds. It overfills on big events. I remember the Truck Racing used to be standing room only at its peak.

Wakefield is just too far away.

Whether V8 teams are building cars in NSW isn't going to get more people to attend a round. How many people that go to race meetings know where each team is from?

And MRJUICY already showed to you that in fact many champions have come from Sydney. But again, I don't see what this has to do with crowds.

Its like the chicken and the egg. In this case, we don't have many chickens so we don't get many eggs.

[mildura1963]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

That would be great location- good climate ,local accommadation etc and well placed between 3 states to draw competitors. Can you elaborate?

I believe that the local car clubs are looking to construct a circuit, with some support from council. I would hope John Kelly would also back a circuit here.....Keith

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

But Eastern Creek was built with an International Race in mind (and not even cars!) whilst Bathurst has that 'special aura' about it so you can't really say they have a 'good record'. Would they have built Eastern Creek if they had known the bikes would finally go to Phillip Island?

Eastern Creek was built specifically to steal the bikes from Phillip Island.
It worked too, but not for long.

[johnny yuma]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

But Eastern Creek was built with an International Race in mind (and not even cars!) whilst Bathurst has that 'special aura' about it so you can't really say they have a 'good record'. Would they have built Eastern Creek if they had known the bikes would finally go to Phillip Island?

Like most things Nick Greiner did he took advice from similar minded people and just went ahead and fast-tracked it.

Genuine consultation was too painful for him (he is not alone in this !!!)

The ARDC have succeeded where others failed dismally despite the rise of V8SC to an artificial ,unsustainable dominance of available resources generally in the Road Racing of Australia.For weekend spectator/competitor events only Historic/Muscle car events can create the idea that spectators exist during Non-international events.Its interesting motor racing is a lot more of a competitors sport than a spectator sport than it was in the so-called heyday of the 60s .As a society we are wealthier (except for house prices) so many people can afford to race cars---but not so many want to follow the races from track to track like they once did.People have other interests,and in honesty in the late 60s early 70s when 40,000 would go to Oran Park then 3 weeks later 12,000 to Amaroo than 8,000 to Catalina well most young spectators would "party" at the meeting and drive home with more than a couple of drinks aboard. You can't risk that any more.

Today's general race meetings are a little bit interesting but gee So Boring to the average punter/casual visitor they would go once and run a mile if their mate/boyfriend/cousin said wanna go to the car races? Without a few beers and a group of friends with you at the races it doesn't really cut it.

[NewsStalker]

bestfit - apologies - forgot about the few years before. But we are both right - they ended up going back down to the Island.

[bazil]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

The ARDC have succeeded where others failed dismally despite the rise of V8SC to an artificial ,unsustainable dominance of available resources generally in the Road Racing of Australia.

If they have now succeeded as you say it is only after they managed to single handedly lose the family jewels first. Amaroo, the premier catagorie, Drag Racing (from Eastern Creek) etc etc. That said I do agree with your thoughts on different times and types of events. I remember as a kid going to Oran Park at meetings where they had cars and bikes running on the same program.It was at one of these particular meetings the Sayle brothers (bike racers) were competing and Murray (or Morrie?) Sayle won his races and because I picked him to win and he did his number has been my lucky number ever since, over 30 years ago.

No booze buses or breath testing was before my driving time but I can imagine things must have been a bit more relaxed going to the track and having a couple of beers.

[Seton Fanatic]

I can't let the Nick Greiner aspect go without comment. It's true that Greiner was not the best at consulting people. When you're a natural loner, and painfully shy (which was mistaken for arrogance, much to his detriment in 1991, and in the Metherell Affair, which he was ultimately cleared of), consultation wouldn't be a strength. But as was said, he's not the only one.

I actually think that Greiner wasn't quite at fault for Eastern Creek as many have alluded to. Indeed, I highly doubt Greiner would have foresaw the possibility of having to bail out the original consortium that ran Eastern Creek.

Anyway, if there were mistakes made by Greiner, then he certainly learnt from them, when he was the original architect of the Sydney 2000 bid.

As for the comments regarding Sydney drivers. It wasn't that long ago, that Sydney was the cottage industry of Australian motor racing, admittedly for privateer teams and drivers mostly. Most drivers who won their class in the Bathurst 1000, came from Sydney, as well as the champions mentioned on the previous page. Indeed, the last time, a Sydney-based team won an ATCC title was in 1987, when Frank Gardner's Terrey Hills-based JPS BMW team with Jim Richards won the championship.

At the moment, Sydney has a plethora of competitive drivers in the ATCC. You have Courtney, Winterbottom, Canto, Skaife (If you want to count Gosford, like some street maps do), Morris and Bargwanna. Then let's not forget the enduro drivers such as Seton and Besnard. Seton, conincidentally, is the last of the Sydney cottage industry drivers from the '60s, '70s and '80s still competing at the highest level of Australian motorsport. Actually, the whole notion of the Sydney cottage industry from that particular era, merits an MRA column or longer. Just think of the names and memories from that golden era of Australian motorsport.

[PVDA]

trouble with claiming all those drivers as being from Sydney is that most have moved to either Melbourne or Queensland so are you claiming Sydney born or currently residing in Sydney??

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by bazil

If they have now succeeded as you say it is only after they managed to single handedly lose the family jewels first. Amaroo, the premier catagorie, Drag Racing (from Eastern Creek) etc etc. That said I do agree with your thoughts on different times and types of events. I remember as a kid going to Oran Park at meetings where they had cars and bikes running on the same program.It was at one of these particular meetings the Sayle brothers (bike racers) were competing and Murray (or Morrie?) Sayle won his races and because I picked him to win and he did his number has been my lucky number ever since, over 30 years ago.

No booze buses or breath testing was before my driving time but I can imagine things must have been a bit more relaxed going to the track and having a couple of beers.

Bazil - it was either lose Amaroo or face certain death as an organisation. They couldn't have both, so they had to sacrifice the track that would ultimately be more difficult to run and manage given the population explosion and housing boom in the area, and the fact that it would be impossible to improve the circuit to the necessary safety standards of today. I miss Amaroo terribly - I regret not driving it more than I did, and not doing any photography there

Eastern Creek as a business is working VERY well, over 90% occupancy during the year for various motorsport, driver training, private hire, commercial activity etc. They have also leased out the figure 8 skid circuit and associated building to Subaru who have made it their Driver Traing Facility.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

And this proves nothing whatsoever. Your reasoning lacks logic. How can a lack of circuits "back up" the myth that NSW/Sydney people are not interested in motorsport? Nonsense.

Have you actually been to Eastern Creek? It doesn't get crowds because it is a very poor venue - its even situated right on top of a rubbish dump - as if the lack of shade and facilities wasn't bad enough you have to put up with the sweet smell of rotting garbage all day.

And Oran Park, it does get crowds. It overfills on big events. I remember the Truck Racing used to be standing room only at its peak.

Wakefield is just too far away.

Whether V8 teams are building cars in NSW isn't going to get more people to attend a round. How many people that go to race meetings know where each team is from?

And MRJUICY already showed to you that in fact many champions have come from Sydney. But again, I don't see what this has to do with crowds.

Its like the chicken and the egg. In this case, we don't have many chickens so we don't get many eggs.

Well i shall reply to this and refer to the other posts

1st yes i have been to EC i was ther 4 years ago this weekend, what a great weekend it was. (i am sure some people will know why i was there) I really didnt see any problems with EC the racing was good, the facilities wheer good, im not sure why people compain.


how does it back up the fact that NSW and espeacially Sydney are not into motorsport. if there is a need they get built. thats the way it works. if enough people are interested then it happens, its not happening in fact another one is about to bite the dust with no replacement

Oran park used to get crowds, get those words "used to" as motorsport has faded in sydney so has the crowds.

Wakefield is about two hours away from sydney, this is a similar distance to Winton and Philip Island from melbourne. But you make a fair argument for a street race at homebush, becaus eit is close and easy to get to.

As Mr Jucy rightly pointed out there have been 4 ATCC from Sydney. (skaife is from country NSW) two weer from the 60s one from the seventies and the other was ten years ago. do i hear that word decline again. and the F1 person, 60's also seriusly Tasmania have won more ATCC in the last 20 years than sydney drivers have

No teams at the top level in australia , leaves budding racers and pit crew nothing left to do but move state, meaning more decline.

I am sure as Pedder siad all tracks are used all the time but by how many people and wheer are they from and why dont they become speactors at other events why dont they aspire to the top and build race teams, because generally as i said Sydney is not into motorsport, (expeacially the circuit variety) yes i realise that there are fans theer who attend races and thats its a generalisation, but where are they

Seton fanatic Morris is not from sydney, he is a country victorian just like a number of drivers out there

[Casper]

We are about to lose 33% of the available race days in NSW. I will bet money there will not be another circuit built in the Sydney basin so get used to travelling. Sydney has never supported motor racing well apart from some peak periods like the Toby Lee series, Amscar etc. No one except a few will mourn the loss of OP and it was pie in the sky to expect it would be replaced. It was always a great circuit with garbage facilities because the owner did not want to develop it and the crowds fell away because of that.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by racer69

(as no one goes to anything but V8 races)

You obviously haven't ventured out to an Historic meeting have you? Muscla car this year had more than the fast taxis, the place was rockin!!! Phillip Island in March this year was three deep at the fence all the way round and the paddock was hell to drive through.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by racer69

(as no one goes to anything but V8 races)

You obviously haven't ventured out to an Historic meeting have you? Muscle Car this year had more spectators than the fast taxis I'm told (I don't go to taxi race meetings), the place was rockin!!! Phillip Island in March this year was three deep at the fence all the way round and the paddock was hell to drive through.
Bring on a new circuit, but please don't just make a 1.2 + km long straight. give us something that suits drivers with ability, not just a right foot and 8 cylinders.

[Bimmerhead]

Don't you mean something that suits cars that stop and turn Dave?? :-)

[racer69]

Originally Posted by David Towe

You obviously haven't ventured out to an Historic meeting have you? Muscle Car this year had more spectators than the fast taxis I'm told (I don't go to taxi race meetings), the place was rockin!!! Phillip Island in March this year was three deep at the fence all the way round and the paddock was hell to drive through.

I was at the MCM David, even had to jump out of the way as your guys pushed the M3 into it's pitbay

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by Bimmerhead

Don't you mean something that suits cars that stop and turn Dave?? :-)

That would be a change these days wouldn't it. Good to see your still taking an interest in things with wheels and engines.

Racer 69, you obviously were at MCM, if you were also at the V8s can you confirm the crowd was bigger than at the taxi race meeting?
We had a bugger of a weekend with fuel pick up issues (now resolved) and did a lot of pushing and are looking forward to next the MCM.

[Bimmerhead]

Still watch as much as I can Dave. In fact I'm living just outside Warwick now and take every chance I can to get to Morgan Park to watch the state rounds. I'm almost ashamed to say though that my current road car is an XR8........