[Driver] 2018 F1 silly season.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

So title sponsor but not the engine badge. The engine badge will be Ferrari.

It sort of matches Alfa's current position where they sponsor Ferrari.
This just extends their F1 presence, and puts them all in a position where they hope for a strong Ferrari PSU.
I wonder if Alfa-Romeo will have any influence at Ferrari to ensure the units supplied to Sauber are of the same spec as the main team?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

So title sponsor but not the engine badge. The engine badge will be Ferrari.

So they're Alfa Romeo Sauber Ferrari?

At least the colour scheme should be better.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I wonder if Alfa-Romeo will have any influence at Ferrari to ensure the units supplied to Sauber are of the same spec as the main team?

Nope. They'll get what they're given. At least they should be current spec rather than year old though - they'll probably the same as Haas get.

[Mekola]

Well, in the late 80s Osella was Alfa-engined and still was a blue car (most of that time). Sauber could follow that line.

[BSchneiderFan]

I can't fathom why they don't rebadge the engines. Make them simply Sauber-Alfa Romeos.

[Mekola]

Back in '81, Eliseo Salazar has Toyota sponsorship in a Ford-Cosworth engined Ensign.
Decades before Toyota actual income in F1.
This look sth similar to Salazar's case.

[S griffin]

Difference is though Alfa and Ferrari are actually part of the same brand

[ScotsBrutesFan]

And there is lies the key I think.

The group whilst re-introducing the Alfa brand back into F1, don't want to be remove the Ferrari name either.

So it makes sense to have the Sauber sponsored by Alfa Romeo and powered by Ferrari. This keeps the group happy on both counts.

[steve_r]

So this is moving Sauber closer to Ferrari than they are at present, combined presumably with one or both seats being filled by Ferrari junior drivers.

Does the current close Ferrari relationship with Haas get affected by this in any way I wonder?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Difference is though Alfa and Ferrari are actually part of the same brand

but different companies since the the Ferrari IPO.

Marchionne is CEO of both companies though...cynically i would say this is nothing more then Marchionne funneling money from FIAT to Ferrari. rather Alfa pays Sauber who in turn pay Ferrari for engines that Sauber was already buying from Ferrari.

although, if Sauber actually improves next year because of their association with Alfa then i dont really have a problem with their shell games.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Clearly (now with the benefit of hindsight) another good reason why the Honda engine deal was cancelled...

if they are actually getting more money and support then they would have from Honda then indeed.

if this is the case, then this does vindicate their termination of Kaltenborn.

after this upcoming season though, i wonder if the Sauber name will stay?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

after this upcoming season though, i wonder if the Sauber name will stay?

I think the question is... Is this Alfa dipping it's toe in the water first before the next step? The announcement on the Sauber site mentions multi-year partnership. So I assume that at this point, AR doesn't own the team. But they might in the future? Maybe this current partnership includes a purchase option? Regardless, even if AR didn't own the team, if you pay enough money you probably can get naming rights.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Difference is though Alfa and Ferrari are actually part of the same brand

Except they aren't. Ferrari is not part of FIAT Chrysler, but Alfa Romeo is.

If this is part of a Marchione plot to move more Alfa funding to Ferrari, I would imagine the FIAT Chrysler shareholders will want to see 'their team' have equal chance of success. If that doesn't happen, the future looks worse for Ferrari in F1 having lost Santander sponsorship already. Putting their FIAT Chrysler sponsorship at risk would be a bold move.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think the question is... Is this Alfa dipping it's toe in the water first before the next step? The announcement on the Sauber site mentions multi-year partnership. So I assume that at this point, AR doesn't own the team. But they might in the future? Maybe this current partnership includes a purchase option? Regardless, even if AR didn't own the team, if you pay enough money you probably can get naming rights.

Richard

Alfa have been backing Ferrari for some time




More likely Ferrari splitting its influence into more teams so that it can outflank Liberty and influence the direction of future engine rule changes.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Alfa have been backing Ferrari for some time




More likely Ferrari splitting its influence into more teams so that it can outflank Liberty and influence the direction of future engine rule changes.

I think I wasn’t clear with my earlier point. It wasn’t dipping it’s toe into F1 in general, but rather working toward full ownership of a team. And I agree that overall this may be a play by Ferrari (really Marchione) to increase his influence in the sport. Maybe a shot across the bow of Liberty.

Richard

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Mekola

Well, in the late 80s Osella was Alfa-engined and still was a blue car (most of that time). Sauber could follow that line.

Kelemata Olives branding, with Agip and a whole host of small Italian company stickers aboard. Is Piercarlo Ghinzani free?

Unless the Benetton branding of the Alfa Romeo works team is on the way back

The United Colours Of Sauber...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

More likely Ferrari splitting its influence into more teams so that it can outflank Liberty and influence the direction of future engine rule changes.

I'm not sure how Alfa-Romeo backing another team translates to an expansion of Ferrari influence. Am I missing something here? (just querying, not trying to disprove anything)

[S griffin]

Well we've already had BMW Sauber, Alfa Sauber now?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not sure how Alfa-Romeo backing another team translates to an expansion of Ferrari influence. Am I missing something here? (just querying, not trying to disprove anything)

No offence taken, if you either disprove a theory of mine or query a theory.
How I learn, and what I enjoy about TenTenths.

The way I see it CR is that F1 is currently divided up into 4 power blocks

Mecedes, Williams, FI - 3 votes

Ferrari, Haas, Sauber - 3 votes

Renault, RBR, McLaren - 3 votes

Honda, STR - 1 vote

If Sauber had gone to Honda, then the Ferrari Mercedes group would have had 5 votes and could be split with Renault and Honda against them.

If the FIA decides to defer to manufacturers Ferrari now have two within their control, plus Merc 3 votes. Renault, Honda, Aston Martin possibly 3 votes.

Alfa thus becomes a method of securing either a majority or at least parity in a voting situation.
Mercedes and Ferrari will control anything that is put to a vote.

[Mike Harte]

wnut, your theory is great, but it has no real bearing on how F1 actually works.

Firstly, the most important "voting" takes place in whatever the group is now called, and only six teams have a vote, whilst the FIA and FOM have 6 votes apiece, meaning that the FIA and FOM can outvote the teams if they want to stop ideas being forwarded to the next stage.

At that 2nd stage, a vote includes all the teams and requires unanimity amongst the teams if a proposal is to be introduced within a certain period. If the proposal is to be introduced outside of that restricted time sphere, then, if I am correct, there is no requirement for a vote and the FIA/FOM can impose it on the teams.

In the case of changes mandated for safety reasons, the FIA/FOM can again impose the change within the time constraint.

However, having said all that, there is probably no doubt that certain teams do align themselves concerning future regulations at the early stages of prospective changes.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

The way I see it CR is that F1 is currently divided up into 4 power blocks

Mecedes, Williams, FI - 3 votes

Ferrari, Haas, Sauber - 3 votes

Renault, RBR, McLaren - 3 votes

Honda, STR - 1 vote

If Sauber had gone to Honda, then the Ferrari Mercedes group would have had 5 votes and could be split with Renault and Honda against them.

If the FIA decides to defer to manufacturers Ferrari now have two within their control, plus Merc 3 votes. Renault, Honda, Aston Martin possibly 3 votes.

Alfa thus becomes a method of securing either a majority or at least parity in a voting situation.
Mercedes and Ferrari will control anything that is put to a vote.

I can see how that works in terms of the number of 'voices' at the table. But as Ferrari were already supplying Sauber, I don't see their connections to Alfa-Romeo changing anything.

Sauber having a title sponsor from the FIAT-Chrysler group expands the FCA influence in F1 - and they can definitely align with Ferrari as they share a CEO.

But - I wonder whether the real reason behind this is due to current F1 ownership - and the marque are trying to make a name for themselves in the N.American market?

[chillibowl]

Didn't Sauber along with Force India recently request that the EU start investigating unfair trade practices in respect to how F1 distributes its prize money?

I'm pretty sure that going forward they won't care so much about Ferrari's bonus!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

wnut, your theory is great, but it has no real bearing on how F1 actually works.

Firstly, the most important "voting" takes place in whatever the group is now called, and only six teams have a vote, whilst the FIA and FOM have 6 votes apiece, meaning that the FIA and FOM can outvote the teams if they want to stop ideas being forwarded to the next stage.

At that 2nd stage, a vote includes all the teams and requires unanimity amongst the teams if a proposal is to be introduced within a certain period. If the proposal is to be introduced outside of that restricted time sphere, then, if I am correct, there is no requirement for a vote and the FIA/FOM can impose it on the teams.

In the case of changes mandated for safety reasons, the FIA/FOM can again impose the change within the time constraint.

However, having said all that, there is probably no doubt that certain teams do align themselves concerning future regulations at the early stages of prospective changes.

All true.

Liberty has however made noises about increased representations from the teams, and then there is the process kicked off by Sauber and FI in the EU mentioned by Chillibowl.

I think that the powers that be, Merc and Ferrari, are stacking the decks to make sure that any democracy that breaks out goes in their favour.

Hopefully Liberty and the FIA will stick together and ignore the lot of them.

When did a manufacturer ever do anything to a Motorsport category other than wreck it, then walk away?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wnut

...Merc and Ferrari, are stacking the decks to make sure that any democracy that breaks out goes in their favour.

thats the quote of the week!

[F1Guy]

2018 Sauber?

[Skam85]

Don’t mind it, but will be very confusing when a Ferrari goes to lap it!