Goodwood Revival

[Peter Mallett]

Good stuff Louis.

[henk4]

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/event...d-Revival.html

Today we have finished our report, there is some splashing visible.

[midgetman]

I've just been watching it on ITV4. Was there a race meeting going on? You didn't see much of it throughout the programme.

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[S griffin]

Yeah there did seem to be a bit much on the off track goings on, although I enjoyed the Brabham tribute. Only a couple of races shown properly, although I enjoyed the Austin race with the tin top boys and that's the first time I've heard Marcus Pye's voice

[pimmy]

I feel that the Shedden/van der Garde incident has been blown out of proportion, I guess mainly because of the BTCC bashing that is so popular on this forum. There were some far more questionable incidents at the chicane during the weekend.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by pimmy

I feel that the Shedden/van der Garde incident has been blown out of proportion, I guess mainly because of the BTCC bashing that is so popular on this forum. There were some far more questionable incidents at the chicane during the weekend.

The incidents at the chicane resulted in time penalties, (Joe Twyman lost his win, Simon Hadfield was relegated to fifth, Michael Gans got a penalty, etc). The fact that Shedden could go on without any consequences may also be due to the fact that JD-Classics, who entered the car, is a major sponsor of the event.

[fatcharles]

There's often a lot of knocking of Goodwood Revival here so as a fan of the event, here's a few points picking up on various criticisms.

The TT has become a bit of an E Type/Cobra fest but I think it's the drivers rather than car development that really makes the difference. The JCB entered 64 GTO for instance won the race a few years ago but is now a mid-runner. The same would probably be true of the JD Classics E Type without the Shedden/Ward combination driving it.

I've been watching historic racing since the 70s and I can say that the cars were fairly unoriginal then....ERAs in particular seem to be running in more original specs now than they did then. Aside from the rollbar epidemic, the cars seem better turned out and more cared for, as you might imagine given their value.

The criticism of the pro drivers seems weird. The cars were driven by pro drivers in period and the close racing and sometimes hairy exploits are probably more in keeping than some millionaires tootling round at parade speeds. Personally I find the spectacle of them being driven at the limit thrilling.

Historic racing has always thrown up anomolies of successful cars that weren't successful in period. ERA's for instance beating Alfa P3s. So I think the idea that today's grids will precisely mimic period ones is highly unlikely.

[midgetman]

The criticism of the pro drivers is two fold. Firstly it creates a 2 tier field with regard to skill level. This could be overcome by enforcing minimum lap times/tightened licence standards as I have bashed on about ad nauseum.

Secondly pro drivers are brought in to win, it's what they are on this earth for. This is against the original ethos of Appendix K which is a celebration of the car not a chance to earn more trophies/kudos/w.h.y.

As an aside, I am appalled by GW's social media department who pump out videos on FB etc that make the average 'Crash' video look tame. It's beginning to look like the organisers actually want the BTCC with old cars.


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[Mike Harte]

It's getting difficult to keep up with this discussion as it is now spread over multiple threads.

However, I do think that there are some who either have can't remember what club racing was like in the 60s and 70s, or they just wear rose-tinted spectacles.

Back then, and I know because I participated, it was not uncommon to race against professional, or at the very least semi-professional, drivers and some of the participating cars were on a different level to those of us mere mortals who were funding ourselves. And it was the reason that many of us had to pack it in earlier than we may have wanted to, solely because we couldn't afford to keep up with the amounts that other "entrants" were prepared to spend.

[John Turner]

Folks, Kev has managed to get the Goodwood Revival as main pic on the front cover of Autosport. Many of you will know that a non FI cover is a very rare occurrence and a historic one unheard of. He says it is unlikely to be repeated unless enough of us buy it. He goes on to say-

'we've got an 8-page report, 5 pages on the Ferrari 246 Dino, plus a spread on Mintex, which supported the event. Marcus has also done his column on it, so I don't think Autosport has ever committed so much coverage'

As you know, he is a great supporter of both Historic and club racing but they don't tend to sell the mag, so this is a big gamble on his part.

[bauble]

I have heard in the past of races being fixed at the Revival, with instructions being given to certain driver about how they may compete, credible evidence from participant.

Frank Stippler in an Cobra rapidly caught and passed Ollie Bryant in a similar car, who then tailed the German home in what looked like a serious battle to re-take the position. LOOKED LIKE!

While the racing tends to be spectacular, and has massive spectator appeal, doubt about it lingers for me.

[fatcharles]

Originally Posted by bauble

I have heard in the past of races being fixed at the Revival, with instructions being given to certain driver about how they may compete, credible evidence from participant.

Frank Stippler in an Cobra rapidly caught and passed Ollie Bryant in a similar car, who then tailed the German home in what looked like a serious battle to re-take the position. LOOKED LIKE!

While the racing tends to be spectacular, and has massive spectator appeal, doubt about it lingers for me.

Stippler's tyres went off and anyone watching that battle who thought it was staged must be mad. Also as stated elsewhere, Stippler and Bryant are professional drivers who drive to win.

[fatcharles]

Originally Posted by midgetman

The criticism of the pro drivers is two fold. Firstly it creates a 2 tier field with regard to skill level. This could be overcome by enforcing minimum lap times/tightened licence standards as I have bashed on about ad nauseum.

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Same as it ever was. Willie Green and Neil Corner were head and shoulders above most other drivers in historics in the 70s as were Gerry Marshall, Mike Salmon and Richard Bond in the 80s. Club and historic racing has always had serious drivers with well-prepared cars and amateurs out to enjoy themselves.

[John Turner]

I'll not comment on the 'fixing' allegation, Bob, but I am in no doubt that Frank Stippler who has proved to be one of the best 'historic' racers at this meeting, genuinely caught Ollie, no mean racer himself, and that Ollie responded to the challenge posed, by upping his game. They were not dicing for the lead, since the Ward/Sheddon E type was well down the road.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by fatcharles

The TT has become a bit of an E Type/Cobra fest but I think it's the drivers rather than car development that really makes the difference. The JCB entered 64 GTO for instance won the race a few years ago but is now a mid-runner. The same would probably be true of the JD Classics E Type without the Shedden/Ward combination driving it.

.

Very warm welcome fatcharles. I'm not convinced by the point about drivers since we've had top drawer drivers in this race pretty much since the the Revival started and I rather think your reference to the Ferrari win rather supports my case. We know that both the quicker E types and Cobras chuck out considerably more power than they did in period and have been subjected to a degree of 'development' not matched by the contemporary Ferraris and Astons.

I hasten to add that I do not dispute the other points you make.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by fatcharles

Same as it ever was. Willie Green and Neil Corner were head and shoulders above most other drivers in historics in the 70s as were Gerry Marshall, Mike Salmon and Richard Bond in the 80s. Club and historic racing has always had serious drivers with well-prepared cars and amateurs out to enjoy themselves.

Agreed; there are always going to be different levels of driving ability and car preparation even at club level.

[fatcharles]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I'm not convinced by the point about drivers since we've had top drawer drivers in this race pretty much since the the Revival started and I rather think your reference to the Ferrari win rather supports my case. We know that both the quicker E types and Cobras chuck out considerably more power than they did in period and have been subjected to a degree of 'development' not matched by the contemporary Ferraris and Astons.

Thanks John and thank you for your response. I think you are of course right, but I also think that particular Ferrari could still win the TT in the hands of a pair of quick drivers. Joe Bamford and De Cadenet took it over from Peter Hardman and took a much gentler approach to racing it.

Fair point on the Astons - recall 212 being a match for the Breadvan in the 70s - but would be interesting to see what 215 might do. My only quibble with the TT is that there are two many cobras and not enough other things these days, although this year the Kinrara Trophy nicked all the GTO's and SWBs.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's getting difficult to keep up with this discussion as it is now spread over multiple threads.

However, I do think that there are some who either have can't remember what club racing was like in the 60s and 70s, or they just wear rose-tinted spectacles.

Back then, and I know because I participated, it was not uncommon to race against professional, or at the very least semi-professional, drivers and some of the participating cars were on a different level to those of us mere mortals who were funding ourselves. And it was the reason that many of us had to pack it in earlier than we may have wanted to, solely because we couldn't afford to keep up with the amounts that other "entrants" were prepared to spend.

Back in the 60s I spectated at a Snetterton clubbie when David Hobbs turned up with a Lola T70 for the sports car race. The next fastest car was an Elan. Quite possibly he was there for testing purposes, but he'd lapped the field after 5 laps or so.

[John Turner]

Definitely cat amongst the pigeons!! I admit there used to be some pretty odd mixed up grids in those days

[john ruston]

Most of incidents were at the chicane.
Put in a white line and have no passing zone.
Save lots of people loads of dosh.
Goodwood likes close racing and that's what you get in most cases.
Bottom line is that their are more people who want to race there than don't want to race.
It's a decision for entrants and drivers as seems there are more incidents than other historic races.
That's what insurance gang tell me
As far as proper drivers against weekend warriors
Easy, make the guest drivers run together and owners/crawlers other half of race.
Another view is tell the superstars they pay for any damage . That will make them much more careful!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by midgetman

As an aside, I am appalled by GW's social media department who pump out videos on FB etc that make the average 'Crash' video look tame. It's beginning to look like the organisers actually want the BTCC with old cars.

Have you seen the Monaco anniversary video on FB?
That is full of images of historic race cars crashing.
It's even more appalling than the GW accident videos.

Given none of these organisations are charitable they presumably believe such videos will increase their income.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by fatcharles

Thanks John and thank you for your response. I think you are of course right, but I also think that particular Ferrari could still win the TT in the hands of a pair of quick drivers. Joe Bamford and De Cadenet took it over from Peter Hardman and took a much gentler approach to racing it.

De Cadenet told me that at Monaco in 2014 he was in a C-type Jag and was totally outdragged from a corner by the 'similar' race winning car, he pointed out that the driver makes no difference in such a situation and that the power difference was so huge that no driver could make up the difference.

It might be a different matter in the endurance races that these cars were designed for, when getting to the end usually required some mechanical sympathy (& luck) from the driver.

The difference is he will always be remembered for his Le Mans results etc.
whereas whoever won a historic sprint does not matter.

[henk4]

Goodwood has now become "friends" with FIA, they have to, as with too many accidents the races will be discontinued. Let's hope that FIA will also get involved in getting the proper cars back and not the mockery ones that are there only for the "win" It is actually appalling that race cars are now being advertised for sale where it is mentioned that it won its race at the Revival. Against whom?

[john ruston]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

De Cadenet told me that at Monaco in 2014 he was in a C-type Jag and was totally outdragged from a corner by the 'similar' race winning car, he pointed out that the driver makes no difference in such a situation and that the power difference was so huge that no driver could make up the difference.

It might be a different matter in the endurance races that these cars were designed for, when getting to the end usually required some mechanical sympathy (& luck) from the driver.

The difference is he will always be remembered for his Le Mans results etc.
whereas whoever won a historic sprint does not matter.

It would be a very quick C Type that would keep up with JD C Type (or their Lister).
When you have done Le Mans as De Cad has driving at Goodwood is completely irrelevant as are most/all historic races

A well known BTCC champ asked me once about historic racing and my take is that it's the used to be's against the never has or never will.Told him that at least he was a was a used to be!

The important thing is enjoy it and don't be a hero,
Having an incident in an old car is expensive and can badly hurt.

Our gang were told to stay out his way of de Cad when he ventured out in Invicta. Not what he was!
Safest move!

[one-two]

Hmm. Would have thought someone running a C-type at Monaco would have a decent budget to buy the right kit. My experience has been slightly different - put two drivers with very different amounts of talent and commitment in two very similar cars and you'll be shocked how different their lap times can be